Class analysis...

[BertrandRussell]

Why do people find it so difficult? Am I being too simplistic and missing something?
White people as a class have more power than black people as a class.. Men as a class are more violent than women as a class. Is there anything controversial there?

[NotDavidTennant]

There's lots of evidence to show that even where both parents work full-time the woman still does more than half of the child-rearing and domestic work. So the idea that men and women are entering into a reciprocal relationship from positions of equality is plainly bunk.

[Bowlofbabelfish]

From a health perspective too. Married men Live longer. Single women live longer.

I often think there’s not that much in it for women to be married

[Lichtie]

Notdavidtenant... Surely that's a choice by the individuals it's not society forcing this on them.

[NotDavidTennant]

No, it's to do with differing social expectations on women and men.

[Lichtie]

Why? Do people then look down on me because my DH does 50% of the work. Am I not meeting social expectations?

[NotDavidTennant]

Many people would, yes. A lot of men would secretly (and in some cases not so secretly) consider your husband to be emasculated by doing "women's work". Heave you never heard the phrase, "Why have a dog and bark yourself"?

More generally, women who has an untidy house and unkempt is considered a slattern. I have rarely, if ever, seen that kind of judgement made of a man.

[Lichtie]

Yes I've heard the phrase applied to many things, both for women and men.
I'm sure you're probably right in regards some people, but I would just choose not to associate with those people. Would have no impact on my life. I'm sure many more would look at it as a positive rather than a negative

[Offred]

Traditional Conservatives for example of the Rees- Mogg variety would not consider their status to be lower.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Do you really think that? Rees-Mogg (and others like him) thinks women should be SAHM, that’s because he thinks there are woman roles and man roles. It is definitely not because he doesn’t think it is low status.

Also all the ‘privilege’ of being home with kids, ‘easy’ not having a —proper— full-time job?! Well that is a perfect example of exactly what people are talking about re status TBH. I think the numbers of women who really choose to be SAHM are quite small, even if they have chosen to be SAHM they haven’t chosen to be seen as lower status.

[ConstantlyCold]

I have rarely, if ever, seen that kind of judgement made of a man

You’ve never heard the word slob?

[Offred]

commenting that she was the ideal candidate for the freedom of speech issue as the Daily Mail would love her as she is a married, SAHM mother of 4.

Do you not understand that this is because women and particularly SAHM are considered lower status.... as in ‘they can’t possibly be threatening they are just a mum’.

[NotDavidTennant]

You’ve never heard the word slob?

Fair point. But the social expectations around the roles of women and men in child-rearing and domestic work are different. We might disagree on where those expectations stem from, and whether they are a good or bad thing, but I would assume virtually everyone would agree that the expectations are different.

[NotDavidTennant]

I wonder if the people taking the "SAHM have it good" line have actually spent time reading non-FWR threads on Mumsnet and particularly the relationships board. It's a massive eye-opener about what some women are going though in their relationships (and in many cases feel that they have to put up with).

[Offred]

We are able to have this place to talk about feminism precisely because women and particularly mothers are considered lower status. People think MN is all about prams... because they think that is what women talk about, that is all they talk about, with their lady brains....

[BertrandRussell]

I don't want to get drawn into this-because I think there is some disingenuous ignorance going on, but out of interest, has anyone ever heard a man being judged about the way his children or his female partner is turned out? Or about the state of the house? Has anyone ever said "What was her dad thinking about?" in the discussion of a coke and chocolate packed lunch?

[ConstantlyCold]

I wonder if the people taking the "SAHM have it good" line

Not a “they have it good” or it’s “easy”

But that there is a balance. If you are a SAHP you gain extra time with your kids and you don’t have to work. But you lose out financially.
There are benefits to being a SAHP. Like I said if I could I would be a SAHM - but we need the money.

Obviously there are a lot of women who don’t really choose to SAH. It’s not worth their while to go to work when you consider the cost of childcare. I would hope that working tax credits help to pay for childcare and allow people to work if they want to but I’m no expert.

[ConstantlyCold]

has anyone ever heard a man being judged about the way his children or his female partner is turned out

You are right men definitely aren’t held to as high a standard. But yes I hear about numpty dads fucking up all the time.

My dh gets judged (in a very lighthearted way) by my friends for constantly being barely on time for drop off at school.

[BertrandRussell]

"You are right men definitely aren’t held to as high a standard. But yes I hear about numpty dads fucking up all the time."
Yes, you do. And who picks up the slack?

[Offred]

But that there is a balance. If you are a SAHP you gain extra time with your kids and you don’t have to work. But you lose out financially.
There are benefits to being a SAHP. Like I said if I could I would be a SAHM - but we need the money.

Obviously there are a lot of women who don’t really choose to SAH. It’s not worth their while to go to work when you consider the cost of childcare. I would hope that working tax credits help to pay for childcare and allow people to work if they want to but I’m no expert.

I think you live in a bubble TBH.

[ConstantlyCold]

Yes, you do. And who picks up the slack

Actually amongst my group of friends we just let them fuck up and they deal with the consequences themselves.

BUT we are mostly middle class professionals and are more than capable of sticking up for our selves.

How do we empower more women to insist their partners man up and share the childcare / housework? I’m hoping the culture is slowly changing with more men seeing childcare as acceptable.

[Offred]

How do we empower more women to insist their partners man up and share the childcare / housework? I’m hoping the culture is slowly changing with more men seeing childcare as acceptable.

This is the age old question. A couple of things; I have so many stories of broken agreements, this is common place. Insisting is not enough when women have no actual power to enforce agreements. I guess it follows that women therefore need higher status and more value placed on the ‘shitwork’ so that they don’t end up being ‘default’ shitworker performer when men make agreements then just decide not to follow through.

[BertrandRussell]

“Actually amongst my group of friends we just let them fuck up and they deal with the consequences themselves.”

Do you? Even if it means that a child loses out?

[BertrandRussell]

“BUT we are mostly middle class professionals and are more than capable of sticking up for our selves. ”

Just checking. You weren’t one of the people going on about how patronizing it was that class analysis was being discussed by middle class academics, were you?

[ConstantlyCold]

Just checking. You weren’t one of the people going on about how patronizing it was that class analysis was being discussed by middle class academics, were you

Yes I was. But just to clarify I’m not now saying women in shit relationships should just act like my mates. If only life were that simple. Of course they have completely difference life experiences.

I was asking how we can change the culture so that more men pull their finger out at home and more women expect for from the men in their lives.

[Offred]

It is interesting though that despite claiming SAHM is not really lower status and actually in some ways privileged you go on to make a point which acknowledges; ‘women need permission from men’

That’s obviously not the only thing restricting choice for women, earning capacity, childcare provision (this is rarely an issue for men is it?) and economic status etc etc

But if you think a big issue is that women are not ‘insisting’ men share and that that is a problem, then I’m interested really in why you don’t see that as an actual indication of a power differential as old as time; ‘man as head of the household’

[BertrandRussell]

"I was asking how we can change the culture so that more men pull their finger out at home and more women expect for from the men in their lives."

Oh, I don't know. How about maybe men as a class stepping up and taking responsibility for the way they behave in relationships? Because that way society will be better for everyone?