Class analysis...

[BertrandRussell]

Why do people find it so difficult? Am I being too simplistic and missing something?
White people as a class have more power than black people as a class.. Men as a class are more violent than women as a class. Is there anything controversial there?

The nice middle class man who hit my daughter only lost a few friends over the incident............

So they did inflict the only social reprisal they are permitted. What would you have preferred? You've ruled out violence. Do you think violent people respond to a stern talking telling off?

So fmsfms thinks that women would have been given the right to vote without the actions of {women } fighting for the rights of {women } to have the vote?

Or perhaps fmsfms thinks that giving the women the right to vote was a backwards step for society?

Fmsfms is giving me some great laughs these days.

Beachcomber

So my post is misogynistic?! It shows that I hate women?

And it 'appropriates oppression'?

Are you just saying words related to social justice?

It makes a comparison, a very valid and pertinent comparison.

See my earlier point re: Special Pleading.

Hmm. The nice middle class man who hit my daughter only lost a few friends over the incident

I’m so sorry that happened. I was using a very lazy stereotype simply to illustrate that not all people / men are violent or even associate with violent people. If your work colleague is secretly a wife beater but hides this very well, how do you challenge it?

I agree with a lot of class analysis but I think you are putting too much responsibility on individuals.

Maybe they don’t increase it, but they normalize it. It becomes part of the society we live in

I disagree. If this violence were becoming part of the society we live in surely we would see some kind of increase in violence.
I think been a peak in violence in London but no one is suggesting this is due to TV, films or gaming (I think it’s drugs but I’m no expert).

No-one is talking about ‘all people’ or ‘all members’ of the identified class.

That’s identity politics that does that. As has been said many times.

@midgebabe "So fmsfms thinks that women would have been given the right to vote without the actions of {women } fighting for the rights of {women } to have the vote? "

Haven't we had enough of straw men:

Little hint, if you have to start your post with "so you're saying" or "so you think" then you're probably straw manning

Fmsfms good luck opening the 'Rape Culture' can of worms. I've had that one several times on here and it always boils down to the following argument:

Do some women in the UK get raped? Yes. Therefore we live in a Rape Culture.

No nuance or thought is allowed.

The position is emotional/ideological and therefore beyond logic and reason.

I even had one memorable exchange with a poster where they refused to draw a distinction between attitudes and behaviours towards rape and rapists in the UK, and countries in which rape is routinely used as a weapon of war.

Speaks volumes about the capacity for actual discussion on any subject to take place at all.

No-one is talking about ‘all people’ or ‘all members’ of the identified class

Well it sounded like Bertrand did.

I said

"Well a lot of men aren’t really in a position to decrease other men’s violence"

And she responded

Really? I can think of several things straight away

What I actually said:

" Peoples lives have massively improved in the last 120 years for lots of reasons: technological and scientific advancements for one....

I find it hard to believe that academic theories like intersectionality have made anywhere near as big a contribution.

Or even that class analysis has been responsible for Western societies gradually becoming more progressive."

What @midgebabe thinks I said: "women would have been given the right to vote without the actions of {women } fighting for the rights of {women } to have the vote?"

Me saying that I don't think academics/academic theories are massively responsible for the huge progress in last 120 years has been misrepresented to mean that I think the suffragettes and other similar movements were unnecessary because women would have got the vote anyway

Fmsfms Hint. When I start " so you are saying" I am not straw manning. I am attempting to repeat your meaning using different words so that you can more easily understand if I have misinterpreted you.

If you don't think that academic theories have been behind much of society and technology progress, well that's bizarre. No link between theories of atoms and evolution to bombs and genetic understanding of illness? Wow.

Someone somewhere had an abstract thought that women were not inferior to men and should be allowed to vote. Women talked about it. They exchanged ideas and theorised. The suffragettes did not arise from a vacuum.

But I am pretty sure you do understand this which is why you like to derail and stir.

"I am attempting to repeat your meaning using different words so that you can more easily understand if I have misinterpreted you."

Stop rephrasing my posts and the chances of straw manning almost disappear

Me referencing the impact/effect of academics has no relation the activism of the suffragettes.

See how you've derailed the discussion by forcing me to explain this to you?

Is English your first language? (genuine question based on your grammar)

"If you don't think that academic theories have been behind much of society and technology progress, well that's bizarre. No link between theories of atoms and evolution to bombs and genetic understanding of illness? Wow."

Dear god, this/you are incredible

Do you know the difference between scientific facts that enable technological progress - eg things that can be proven and utilised/harnessed eg laws of physics etc

vs acdemic theories like intersectionality that can't be proven, only debated????

Dear god, how I wish this forum had a block feature

Reminder (I will post this everytime people like midgebabe decide to straw man me)

You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack.

By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.

Example: After Will said that we should put more money into health and education, Warren responded by saying that he was surprised that Will hates our country so much that he wants to leave it defenceless by cutting military spending.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

PatriarchyPersonified.

Your comparison is neither valid nor pertinent. It is an attempt at a false equivalence. And a not very nice one at that because yes, it does appropriate the legitimate struggle of people of colour against racism in order to shame women for legitimately noticing the deeply engrained culture of male violence they live in.

And yes, that is misogynistic. I'm not sure what else to say really. Your posts are trying to claim that I'm not making a point other than "your post is offensive" when in fact I have clearly argued 3 times now why your point is fatally flawed and misogynistic to boot.

how boring this thread has got now it has become all about how great fms thinks fms is...

@offred blame the person/people that think it's acceptable to rephrase my posts in order to flagrantly misrepresent my opinions

What you're doing looks a lot like victim blaming

I wonder wot our Lord Father DOCTOR Peterson would say. The word of the good DOCTOR is SCIENCE don’t you know.

should I just get a cup of tea?

To Constantly Cold: There are two recent cases in the media of sexually motivated murders of women where the watching of violent porn was cited as influential in the case. The victims were Kim Wall and Yinying Zhang. I wish men would not watch porn. I think that is something they could do personally. I think they could act and speak with friends as if they think porn is not acceptable. All actual feminists (and I don't mean the lib fems) hate porn and think it is emblematic of women's subordinate position in society.

All actual feminists (and I don't mean the lib fems)

Because yours is the only true feminism, the only one that's allowed.

🤔

" think it is emblematic of women's subordinate position in society."

How do you explain gay porn then?

Men are more likely to be primarily sexually stimulated/aroused by looks/visuals, that's why porn exists and why men don't buy erotic/romantic fiction

Out of interest, how do the "no male/female brains" "pro nurture" crowd explain that one?

@patriarchypersonified "All actual feminists (and I don't mean the lib fems)"

Sounds like she was making a no true Scotsman fallacy

This isn't really relevant to the discussion but I just read this on the Wikipedia article 'third wave feminism'

The term third wave is credited to Rebecca Walker, who responded to Thomas's appointment to the Supreme Court with an article in Ms. magazine, "Becoming the Third Wave" (1992).[1][7] She wrote:

So I write this as a plea to all women, especially women of my generation: Let Thomas’ confirmation serve to remind you, as it did me, that the fight is far from over. Let this dismissal of a woman's experience move you to anger. Turn that outrage into political power. Do not vote for them unless they work for us. Do not have sex with them, do not break bread with them, do not nurture them if they don't prioritize our freedom to control our bodies and our lives. I am not a post-feminism feminist. I am the Third Wave.[1]

Maybe it just seems a bit silly to put such large groups of people with so little in common into a class. My experience as a white person is extremely different to that of a white person of western European heritage. Most people can't guess my heritage by looking at me and just lump me into the category of white so I enjoy many of the privileges that wore people do but I don't really consider myself a white person. My life experience has been extremely different and I am sick of being told what I can and cannot say or think because of how I look. I may enjoy white privilege to an extent (obviously I don't have a lot of the privileges that white white have but I don't mind that) but I have a wider life experience specifically because of my ethnic origins. I just have very little in common with the average white person barring the assumptions that less wprldly people make about me. If I had to put myself into a class based on race other than race itself it would have to be child of migrants or something similar.