Class analysis...

[BertrandRussell]

Why do people find it so difficult? Am I being too simplistic and missing something?
White people as a class have more power than black people as a class.. Men as a class are more violent than women as a class. Is there anything controversial there?

[MIdgebabe]

Class analysis is a tool to help you identify that discriminatory generalisation said are taking place and a mechanism to try and work out what actions would reduce the problems.

If /when people stop treating people badly based on class assumptions then we might not need to do analysis and response based on class. This is a bit chicken and egg. But history shows us that doing the analysis and actions has seriously improved the lives of lots of people.

[MIdgebabe]

Btw , giving females and males separate facilities by is actually treating both groups exactly the same whilst respecting that they are different ( in case you hadn't noticed sex) . women's loos have SAN bins and men's have urinals because we are different. But we both have equal access to loss and equal amounts of privacy.

[BertrandRussell]

"I don't think I would ask that men as a class take responsibility for improving the rights of women"
Just in case this was prompted by a list of mine, I checked back to see if I said that- and I am relieved to discover that I didn't. I said that men are in the position to make society better for everyone, and choose not to. Men are victims of male violence too.

[Dissimilitude]

Class analysis is not useful because it hides nuance which is usually crucially important to the issue that one is attempting to understand. Look at things in terms of populations / demographics is obviously a very useful technique, but class analysis as usually performed isn't nearly granular enough to get at the truth.

For example, saying "men, as a class, are more violent than women" is true. It's also close to useless at giving any insight, and leads to inaccurate generalisation and misdiagnosis of the actual issues.

Aggression, as a psychological character trait, is not too different on average between men and women. Men are slightly more aggressive on average. But the two populations overlap hugely - so much so that basing any policy or analysis on "men vs women" is meaningless and misleading.

At the tail ends of the distribution, however, there is enormous difference. The most violent people are almost always men. The distribution of aggression among the male population is hugely variable.

This is a subtle, but crucially important distinction, because the question becomes not "why are men more violent than women" but "why are a small proportion of men way more violent than everyone else".

Class analysis is fine when it tries to incorporate the required level of detail and granularity in its workings. But most people who wield it don't, because they're not interested in truth, only in narrative.

[fmsfms]

"But history shows us that doing the analysis and actions has seriously improved the lives of lots of people."

Bit of a false cause fallacy here. Peoples lives have massively improved in the last 120 years for lots of reasons: technological and scientific advancements for one (mainly accomplished by the evil white men in subjects that people now want to see 'decolonised')

I find it hard to believe that academic theories like intersectionality have made anywhere near as big a contribution.

Or even that class analysis has been responsible for Western societies gradually becoming more progressive.

[UpstartCrow]

@PatriarchyPersonified the risk of violence towards women is not imaginary.

Devise a better way for women to manage the risk instead of complaining about sex segregated spaces.

[Beachcomber]

Am just reading through the thread but had to stop to go OMFG at the below from PatriarchyPersonified!

There is no logical difference between what you have just said there and someone saying that they should treat all black people in America as potential criminals.



Do you not see how offensive it is to say the above? You are saying that the action of women observing and experiencing male violence throughout their lives and then having the temerity to not trust strange men is akin to ignorant racism.

FFS

[Beachcomber]

Its a small minority of men that commit the vast majority of violent crimes and rape.

I challenge you on this statement. Because it is way too simplistic. The culture of male violence and the rape culture it bolsters is everywhere. I don't think there is a women alive who hasn't experienced the culture of male violence against girls and women. The very fabric of society is a normalized all pervasive culture of male violence against girls and women.

Trying to pretend that the problem is a "small minority of men" is ridiculous.

[Offred]

Class analysis is not trying to answer why there is a problem with e.g. male violence. It is simply identifying that e.g. male violence exists. If you want to investigate all the whys and hows and nuances involved it first needs to be identified as a thing that exists. That is what class analysis does.

[PatriarchyPersonified]

Beachcomber you have literally just proven my earlier point yet again.

Your objection to my point is completely based on the fact that you find it offensive, rather than on the merits of the argument.

This is why we should teach critical thinking as part of the national curriculum.

[MephistophelesApprentice]

"men are in the position to make society better for everyone"

Positive sexism is still sexism, as well as being untrue.

[fmsfms]

" the rape culture it bolsters is everywhere"

Oh dear

[ConstantlyCold]

bertrand

I said that men are in the position to make society better for everyone, and choose not to. Men are victims of male violence too

Well a lot of men aren’t really in a position to decrease other men’s violence. Men in positions of power sure, but not most men. It’s not that men don’t want to (although I’m sure some don’t give a shit) but it’s not clear what they can do. Other than raise their sons to be none violent

[BertrandRussell]

So you don't think that if men stopped being, and condoning violence society would be a better place for everyone?

[MIdgebabe]

No Bertrand, it was someone else misinterpreting .it may have helped to be specific about who I was replying too, sorry.

As an aside, This whole thread is really helping my organise my thoughts so thanks for starting it

[MIdgebabe]

Class analysis is not useless unless you apply it niaively. Without it we would never have noticed that poor lads in Sunderland are getting a raw deal.

[BertrandRussell]

"Well a lot of men aren’t really in a position to decrease other men’s violence"

Really? I can think of several things straight away. Stop supporting films, games and magazines and other media outlets that glorify male violence. Speak out when their friends, family and colleagues excuse male violence. Take an active role in raising their sons to reject violence. Stop hitting people, and thinking that hitting people is ever a solution.

[kesstrel]

There is an obvious difference between treating an unknown stranger who belongs to a more powerful class than you warily until you do know them, and assuming that he (as an individual) is definitely more likely do you harm.

Black men in the American South in the 1920s had good reason to treat unknown white men warily. That was not "prejudice", it was justified caution with regard to personal safety.

[BertrandRussell]

That's OK, midge. I was posting while dog walking earlier and I could have said anything...

[Beachcomber]

PatriarchyPersonified.

I'm feeling patient so I'm going to spell this out for you. My objection is not that your point is offensive alone. It is that your point is offensive because it is misogynistic.

You are attempting to create a false equivalence. A misogynistic one.

Do you understand what supremacist society is and how it functions? Your posts suggest not.

For your offensive and misogynistic point to not be offensive and misogynistic there would need to be instutionalised female supremacy. This is clearly not the case and a stupid point to attempt to argue. Also you are appropriating one minority's oppression (people of colour) in order to police another oppressed minority (girls and women).

[Beachcomber]

fmsfms.

What is your point? Are you denying the existence of rape culture?

[ConstantlyCold]

Stop supporting films, games and magazines and other media outlets that glorify male violence

Very little evidence that violent video games / films increase RL violence.

Speak out when their friends, family and colleagues excuse male violence

The class of naice middle class men who don’t see people excusing male violence. What can they do? There’s nothing for them to speak out against.

Take an active role in raising their sons to reject violence

Totally agree

Stop hitting people, and thinking that hitting people is ever a solution

And if they are of the class of men that don’t hit? Continue as normal?

Genuinely a lot of people aren’t in a position of power to stop others violence. The culture needs to change, people who are in a position of power must take the lead on this. There needs to be a cultural change but asking people to effect change when they have very little power often gets their backs up.

[BertrandRussell]

The class of naice middle class men who don’t see people excusing male violence. What can they do? There’s nothing for them to speak out against.”

Hmm. The nice middle class man who hit my daughter only lost a few friends over the incident............

[fmsfms]

"What is your point? Are you denying the existence of rape culture?"

Yes 1000000000000%

[BertrandRussell]

“Very little evidence that violent video games / films increase RL violence.”

Maybe they don’t increase it, but they normalize it. It becomes part of the society we live in.