Class analysis...

[BertrandRussell]

Why do people find it so difficult? Am I being too simplistic and missing something?
White people as a class have more power than black people as a class.. Men as a class are more violent than women as a class. Is there anything controversial there?

Is it that lady brain wants to be looked after and man brain is wired to provide? Is that why? Are we going to get a fish gallop of poorly understood science facts now?

Ha ha... fish?! gish... gish....

At least if they offered us a fish gallop we'd have something to snack on later.

Fish gallop... yes... infinitely more appealing than fms’ ‘science facts’....

Why would women be looking for a man to provide for them?

Because we just sit around like sirens waiting for a poor hapless Male to suck dry like a spider I think? SCIENCE SAYS SO,

This is a misunderstanding of the concept of resource provisioning (on which I’ve written at least one paper as a younger scientist )

Resources are stuff like food, space, water etc. externally but it can also be internal resources - if you’ve got a mammal that can be competing with womb mates for space and nutrients too.

So you get resource war and resource response and sex allocation differences in some of the following situations:

Low food year - red deer on Rum (the Scottish island, which is a lovely place to do fieldwork) seem to be able to bias the sex off their offspring so that they have more females in bad years. Even ‘poor quality’ runty females generally mate but the males need to be able to be in good condition so it makes more sense to have boys in good years

Genes expressed differently from maternal and paternal copies * can influence growth in line with what benefits the parent they are from, so the mother doesn’t want a massive foetus, she knows it’s her baby, so that pressure is to limit growth. The copy from the father may act to increase growth at the expense of the mother and future or current siblings because his genes are not present in them.

• but these are lady genes! One poster said a while back. No. No they are not.

The concept is often used as the ‘pretty ladies sit about manipulating males who do all the hunting’ crap but if you look at modern hunter gatherer populations the bulk of calories are provided by women and children anyway. Men tend to go further afield and bring back larger game which provides important protein but isn’t the predominant source of nutrients.

I’d like my fish gallop fried I think, with posh mushy peas and tartare sauce.

The notion that your average father/husband on an average annual wage is somehow of higher status than his wife who is raising the kids and keeping the house in order is laughable.

High fives bowl

"The notion that your average father/husband on an average annual wage is somehow of higher status than his wife who is raising the kids and keeping the house in order is laughable."

If you genuinely believe this, I honestly think there's no point in discussing the subject any further. It's a bit like talking about navigation to a flat earther.

I've already referred to how the "patriarchy fairy" keeps being wielded, so I guess that's the same as talking to someone who believes in a supernatural being despite no tangible actual physical evidence for the existence of that fairy

A man on £25k a year supporting a wife and kids hardly has any status worth shouting about.

What can he do that she can't?

SAHMs have low status in society for reasons that have been discussed on here before. Earning is percieved as more valuable than caring. She is financially dependent on her husband so more vulnerable to abuse. Out of the two of them, the SAHM is lower status and less powerful.

But the woman is invisible to you. You are all about the poor men.

I guess we can think Jordan Peterson for bringing this particular anti-feminist to this forum?

Earning is percieved as more valuable than caring. She is financially dependent on her husband so more vulnerable to abuse. Out of the two of them, the SAHM is lower status and less powerful

I think you have a point here. SAHP are in a often in a more financially vulnerable position. A lot of SAHM choose this role though. And there are been plenty of threads where SAHM feel their role is not valued by society.
I’m sure many SAHM / SAHDs don’t see themselves as less privileged than their partners they feel they are luck to have a partner who earns enough to support them to stay at home. It only gets rough when the relationship breaks down and they find their financial position is fucked.

Sorry I’m a bit rambly there. Basically being a SAHP does put you in a financially vulnerable position. But people (mostly women) who are SAHPs feel they are privileged to be able to SAH.

If I had a big cash windfall I would be a SAHP, much easier than my full time job.

Oh yeah of course. I am not devaluing SAHMs or their choice to do that at all.
But status is an externally imposed thing (i.e. it is the perception of other people/society) and SAHMs are lower status than earners.
So fms was talking bollocks. The guy earning £25k may be lower status than other higher earners but not than his wife.

Of couse his wife could potentially go to work and earn more than him but then she wouldnt be a SAHM so the point becomes meaningless.

The SAHM is financially vulnerable and has less economic power. On the question of status I don't agree with your blanket status that all SAHMs have low status in society. It is more nuanced than that. Unless you think status is only determined by economic power.

Traditional Conservatives for example of the Rees- Mogg variety would not consider their status to be lower.

"Earning is percieved as more valuable than caring."

Depends who you speak to.

Ok, lets break it down.

A man married with kids on 25k a year. Probably in his late 20s early 30s, let's say 30. On 25k a year with 4 mouths to feed. 25k a year at 30 suggests that his salary doesn't scale particularly well.

He might be doing ok for his local area, he is on the average UK salary after all.

Take him out of his local area - a romantic weekend away at London, or a week abroad somewhere. Get speaking to another couple at the hotel bar and the chances of him being outearned and outshone by the other person/couple increase significantly.

That higher earning couple is far more likely to see themselves as being higher status than him, and probably as likely to have just as much respect for the wife who's running a household of 4 on his "average" wage

Someone even quoted this at me ""behind every great man there is a great woman"? as if it was a "Gotcha!"

GREAT MAN THERE IS A GREAT WOMAN!

Not "less great, less good woman" A GREAT WOMAN

I think that phrase reflects that marriages/relationships ideally are reciprocal arrangements where both parties are working together and constantly negotiating the parameters/expectations of what is necessary to maintain a happy and healthy relationship

But no, according to this forum it's just patriarchy enabled men selling women into the salt mines

But status is an externally imposed thing (i.e. it is the perception of other people/society) and SAHMs are lower status than earners

But as quentin said above lass status is imposed by others

So DH does not consider me to be a prostitute, or a burden, or a leech, or the female equivalent of a cocklodger etc

And i bloody dont either

But other people do...specially on here

" She is financially dependent on her husband so more vulnerable to abuse."

What happens if they get divorced? Who is expected to keep providing for who?

So fms was talking bollocks. The guy earning £25k may be lower status than other higher earners but not than his wife

Well that’s if you look at the financial position alone. What about the privilege of spending more time with your kids. The privilege of not going to work 5 days a week?

What happens if they get divorced? Who is expected to keep providing for who

If they aren’t married the SAHP is financially screwed.

then they can't get divorced then, can they?

I'm curious about this whole perception of value. Perception to who? Why would I care about perceived value if I'm a SAHM with a DH that earns £25k, how is it going to impact my life?

then they can't get divorced then, can they

If they spilt up

Thinking about your point earlier fms about men and women sharing privilege as a couple. That does happen, you do hear women talk about their partners high status career like it’s their career too. I’ve always though that’s a bit odd.

Do couples share the same privilege status? Don’t know, maybe?

But as quentin said above lass status is imposed by others

Yes but that assumes aĺl others are imposing that status.

Yes but that assumes aĺl others are imposing that status

Like my old manager telling me about his new watch that cost £2,000. Apparently other people are incredibly impressed by it. Sadly for him most people think he’s wasted £2,000

I can't remember who posted and where but there was a post about Posy Parker (Kelly- Jay) commenting that she was the ideal candidate for the freedom of speech issue as the Daily Mail would love her as she is a married, SAHM mother of 4.

I'm paraphrasing but the gist was Posy's status made her unquestionable.