Class analysis...

[BertrandRussell]

Why do people find it so difficult? Am I being too simplistic and missing something?
White people as a class have more power than black people as a class.. Men as a class are more violent than women as a class. Is there anything controversial there?

Now, someone might not believe in collective responsibility at all but it’s a bit of a leap to suggest that what Bertrand is suggesting is that it is only men and not anybody else that is responsible for calling it out

So belonging to class Y or X or Z shouldn’t impact your responses. What we need is everyone behaving as decent human beings. Sounds very sensible.

" Calling out a stranger in the pub for violent attitudes/tendencies against women is likely to result in said non violent man being filled in"

As I have said repeatedly- it's not just violence against women. Men are victims of male violence too. So men will benefit from a better, less violent society

I think what Henbane is saying is that calling out a violent man when he punches another man is likely to change that mans behaviour. But not for the better, he’ll just kick the shit out of you too.

Yes cold, that’s the point. When people do ‘but NAMALT’ they are having a ‘different response’.

If someone is punching someone wouldn’t it be better to call the police?

Feminists often talk about "unearned privilege" when they talk about class. I think it is a useful term, especially as the notion of privilege has been hijacked by identity politics.

Unearned privilege is the reason why there are disproportionate numbers of men in positions of power and mediocre men in high flying jobs being supported by a wife and a female PA. Unearned privilege is also the reason why men as a class do not do their fair share of housework and child care.

So yes, it may seem ridiculous to talk about poor men in northern England as "privileged" but the chances are that even these men have "unearned privilege" or at least an expectation of it as they probably have a mother or a wife who washes their pants and makes their dinner. They also probably get to be a parent whilst doing less than their fair share of parenting because a woman will be doing the heavy lifting of parenting.

This is what feminists mean when they talk about men as a class having privilege. It doesn't mean they are all privileged in the general sense of the word. It means they get paid more, get better jobs, have more power, have more freedom, etc than their female counterparts and most likely have a woman in their lives doing wife work.

It also means that they are much more likely to use prostitutes than be prostituted, to abuse their partner than be abused, to see themselves portrayed in popular culture and the media as having control, power and status than as powerless or as a victim, etc, etc.

It is still very much a man's world and that is what unearned privilege means.

If someone is punching someone wouldn’t it be better to call the police?

Of course. But I've got the impression that it's all forms of aggression/sexism that men are supposed to challenge. Still very likely to result in a kicking for said person.

Oh and unearned privilege is also the reason for ubiquitous things like manspreading, mansplaining, men dominating conversation, men thinking they can ask women they don't know to "smile" or interact with them, men pestering women for sex, men with children doing hobbies that take up huge amounts of time, men not being the ones that make things like Christmas happen, etc, etc.

All forms all the time and never do anything else and only men?

Are you always so black and white?

So gross generalisations against huge groups of people are OK as long as there is evidence to support them? That's not the way political discourse has developed over the last few decades, certainly on the left, so it's a novel point of view, at least.

Hahahaha you have tickled me.
Saying something evidence based about a class of anything (including people) is describing some objective facts, not a "gross generalisation". It is a key basis of the scientific method, not a "novel viewpoint"

Political discourse on the left has absolutely fuck all to do with it, unless you are owen jones?

Yes cold, that’s the point. When people do ‘but NAMALT’ they are having a ‘different response

I don’t like class anaylsis based collective responsibility.

I think you make a good point here about culture. Of course most men have less influence over culture than you would think. Discussions about any kind of group responsibility for actions makes me exceptionally wary.

It’s simply that culturally men are not expected to have any responsibility and women are for this issue despite women having virtually no control over the culture of masculinity or the behaviour of men

I gathered! Obviously no-one is required to believe in collective responsibility. I think most people do to some extent though. Certainly on certain issues. People are also quite inconsistent I think. I definitely think most people believe some things are a collective responsibility and others are individual responsibilities.

So yes, it may seem ridiculous to talk about poor men in northern England as "privileged" but the chances are that even these men have "unearned privilege" or at least an expectation of it as they probably have a mother or a wife who washes their pants and makes their dinner

You don’t spend much time in deprived northern towns do you beach

I definitely think most people believe some things are a collective responsibility

Yes but proper collective responsibility meaning everyone. Not I belong to class X so I’m responsible for thing Y. I’m sorry, if I’ve misunderstood your post by the way.

Ha ha! Well I live in one and have for my whole life and I was nodding along....

Of course working class women have always worked for a wage but IME experience it is generally upper middle class women that are able to start freeing themselves a bit from the wifework.

For a working class woman life is all of the shitwork plus waged work.

And when a complete stranger who happens to share my sex, my race, my social class, or my tennis club does something wrong, am I culpable if I do or say nothing?"

Only inasmuch as failure to object is assumed to be acquiescence.

Rather like the rapist argument that she was too frightened of me to say no, so I assumed she consented.

Statistically women as a class are responsible for nearly all false rape accusations.
Are those UK statistics you are referring to?

Yy proper collective responsibility.

I don’t think Bertrand was ever arguing that male violence is only the responsibility of men or that racism is only the responsibility of white people etc etc

Yy proper collective responsibility

Genuinely glad we agree.

I think Bertrand was trying to say ‘why is male violence culturally considered a ‘women’s problem’?’

So yes, it may seem ridiculous to talk about poor men in northern England as "privileged" but the chances are that even these men have "unearned privilege" or at least an expectation of it as they probably have a mother or a wife who washes their pants and makes their dinner

Sorry but I just think we are in danger of going down the whole. A white homeless person has more privilege than a black homeless person nonesence again.

Poor men and women in deprived areas have a shit time of it. A group of privileged people on on internet board arguing about who has the slightly shitter end of the stick does not sound good. I’ve no desire to go there again.

Agreed but it’s not very good at changing heart and minds. In all seriousness imagine the “I Have a Dream Speech” but the title is actually “I Have a Class Based Analysis”

This is shockingly disingenuous.
It was class based analysis that took us to the "I Have A Dream" speech.
People like you were there then too saying what you are saying here. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

This is shockingly disingenuous

I have already said in one of my previous posts that class analysis was of course important in the basis of the speech. But giving people a lecture on what class analysis is and explaining they should do Y because they are part of class X is not going to enthuse anyone.

I can’t be arsed copying and pasting the post but have a read back through the thread it’s there.

Thanks! I won't wast my time reading yours any further.

Yes, that’s why identity politics is bad...