Class analysis...

[BertrandRussell]

Why do people find it so difficult? Am I being too simplistic and missing something?
White people as a class have more power than black people as a class.. Men as a class are more violent than women as a class. Is there anything controversial there?

Bertrand

I confess I’m baffled

And it's not as if I'm suggesting men should do anything more than live civilised, empathetic, aware, decent lives

From what I’ve understood from your position. You want to decrease and then stop violence (the vast majority of which is carried out by men). I agree with this.

Where we differ is that you seem to think class analysis should be usful in persuading people to stop violence.
I however remain unconvinced that a discussion of class analysis is at all beneficial. It’s just not going to win any hearts and minds.

“It’s just not going to win any hearts and minds.”

So what is?

Although if simply knowing that you belong to the class of people who committ most of the violence doesn’t make you want to do something about it then there doesn’t seem to be much hope, frankly. “Persuade me, convince me, win my heart and mind. No- tell me about it again. Use different words. Nicer words........”

That wasn't my intention. What I intended to say tht if men (as a class) accepted the analysis, it would be reasonable to expect them to do whatever they could in their own lives to change stuff that wi make things better for everyone. As individuals they will be able to do less or more-but as a class there is lots they could do

Sorry Bertrand I'm puzzled too for the same reasons set out by ConstantlyCold

Very few people dispute that men are more violent than women. Individual men can and do choose not to be violent. Some men go further by becoming more actively involved or campaigning or calling out behaviour.

I'm struggling to see what "men as a class" could do- what does that even mean?

Individual men can behave better- the behaviour of good men may influence others.

I agree with ConstantlyCold's points.

Going back to fsm's point about being challenged that she isn't a woman has made me think of this issue of "class" is a very blunt tool if it results in women being told by other women that they don't meet the criteria of being in the class of women (not that you do that)

Although if simply knowing that you belong to the class of people who committ most of the violence doesn’t make you want to do something about it then there doesn’t seem to be much hope

We discussed this earlier, if you aren’t a violent person there isn’t actually much you can do stop stop other men hitting people. Especially when it’s behind closed doors and is secret.

I’m white and therefore part of the class that causes racism. Knowing that I’m part of that class doesnt pursuade me that racism needs to be reduced. The fact that racism is wrong is way more convincing than some explaining via class analysis which group I belong to.

Amazing how the purveyors of class analysis can end up sounding an awful lot like Donald Trump. Let's imagine this speech by his female counterpart, Donaldina:

"When Men send their people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people".

"Donaldina J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Men entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what the hell is going on!"

Well, as a concerned citizen, I'm not sure about this woolly liberal "some are good people" stuff, Donaldina - what are you, some kind of man-lover?

Why do people now see racism and understand it ‘is wrong’?

Although if simply knowing that you belong to the class of people who commit most of the violence doesn’t make you want to do something about it then there doesn’t seem to be much hope

Seriously, just imagine trying to apply this standard to any other group whose members have been know to commit crime and violence - it would be denounced as hateful bigotry, and rightly so.

I suggested some of the things that men could do earlier, in no particular order. I try to do the equivalent things as a white woman in an attempt to combat racism. (not the same things, obviously - equivalent things)
"Stop supporting films, games and magazines and other media outlets that glorify male violence. Speak out when their friends, family and colleagues excuse male violence. Take an active role in raising their sons to reject violence. Stop hitting people, and thinking that hitting people is ever a solution."

Why do people now see racism and understand it ‘is wrong’

Probably Martin Luther Kings inspirational speech “I Have a Class Analysis” stirring stuff

Bertrand I respect your opinion on here and while I don't always agree with you, I listen to what you have to say.

I have lost track of where you are going with this thread. I'm sorry, it's not very clear anymore exactly what you are saying.

Or if you ignore just one class then us females become the most violent class... With a rising trend also... Or are we just ignoring that. Should I be doing something about it, it is my class after all. what can I do?

I suggested some of the things that men could do earlier, in no particular order. I try to do the equivalent things as a white woman in an attempt to combat racism. (not the same things, obviously - equivalent things)

So are you seriously suggesting that individual members of a group are required (morally?) to take personal action to remedy their group's failings even if they are personally blameless as individuals? Are they morally culpable if they refuse to do so? And do you make that demand of any group other than men, and if not, why not?

Seriously, why do you think people see racism is wrong now?

Because obviously they haven’t always.

ust imagine trying to apply this standard to any other group whose members have been know to commit crime and violence - it would be denounced as hateful bigotry, and rightly so.

Why? I’m aware that being white in the West means I have the deck stacked in my favour on a lot of things. I’m aware i probably benefit from that in invisible ways. I may not even SEE racism sometimes because the more insidious stuff probably does even register with most of us. I’m aware it’s my duty to listen to those who do experience it, to take what they say about it as probably more valid than my blinkered view, to call it out where I do see it and to raise my kids to not be racist.

I’d expect the analogous stuff from men. No one is asking them to gonround in hair charts self flagellating to atone for the crimes of individuals, just to be aware of it, listen to what we are saying about it, call it out when they see it and raise their kids to be decent.

That seems like common sense to me.

To go around in hair shirts... seriously my typos ... sigh.

Too many people are still getting stuck at the ‘but I’m not like that and you’re having a go at me personally’ stage.

You need to look beyond yourself.

Too many people are still getting stuck at the ‘but I’m not like that and you’re having a go at me personally’ stage

I’m not a man, no ones having a go at me. I just think class analysis does not win hearts and minds.

People don’t decide on a course of action just because someone points out they belong to a certain class of people.

What is racism?

What is sexism?

What is classism?

Etc etc...

Aren’t they all oppressions/discriminations on the basis of shared characteristics?

Class analysis therefore is necessary isnt it? Because without it class based oppression/discrimination is just one individual being mean to another individual...

It’s not anti-nuance or anti-individual because you need both the framework and the ‘nuance’....

Some people seem to be suggesting that we should only look at the ‘nuance’ because articulating the framework is mean to some people who have lots of issues or some people will feel judged...

Why? I’m aware that being white in the West means I have the deck stacked in my favour on a lot of things. I’m aware i probably benefit from that in invisible ways. I may not even SEE racism sometimes because the more insidious stuff probably does even register with most of us. I’m aware it’s my duty to listen to those who do experience it, to take what they say about it as probably more valid than my blinkered view, to call it out where I do see it and to raise my kids to not be racist.

Ok, so according to you this standard of "collective responsibility" applies to (a) men taking steps to stop other men being violent, (b) white people taking steps to stop other white people being racist. Do you apply this standard of collective responsibility to any other groups? To take a topical example from the US, MS-13 is a gang comprised mainly of Central American Latinos who have committed around 200 murders in the US in the last 5 years. Do you place a moral responsibility on law-abiding US Latinos to take steps to prevent those murders, and hold them morally culpable if they do not?

Good luck trying to ‘win hearts and minds’ if you can’t even articulate that e.g. racism exists!

Class analysis therefore is necessary isnt it

I have never at any point said class analysis is not necessary. It’s just not a very good tool to persuade people to change their behaviour.

Yeah, but why do you think it is ‘the tool’? Why are you expecting it to perform that function?

I would argue it is essential in the process because without it class based oppression/discrimination like racism cannot be seen to exist can it?

Ok, so according to you this standard of "collective responsibility"

It isn’t collective responsibility, it’s collective awareness. Collective acknowledgment of existence, collective determination to work towards removing the problematic structure.
So nobody is expecting every El Salvadorean to go around like the Fratres Saccate apologising for them. And nobody is expecting every man in the world to self flagellate.

What’s right is that a class should self examine and be aware of an issue. To listen and not deny there’s an issue. To take on board suggestions from people who are ex gang members on how to reduce gang affiliation risks. To LISTEN TO WOMEN when they say that Male violence is an issue.

Not just to say well it’s not me, I don’t do that, you bigot. NOT ALL MEN. Yeah we know it’s not all men. We know it’s not every el salvadorean in the states. We know it’s not every white person.

Look beyond the self. Collective action, collective awareness. Perhaps that skirts dangerously close to social democracy in the USA?

Look beyond the self. Collective action, collective awareness. Perhaps that skirts dangerously close to social democracy in the USA?

Funny you should say that, because almost everyone on the left in the US considers the expectation that law-abiding Latinos should bear any sort of collective responsibility (sorry, "awareness") for the crimes committed by others of their group to be the purest Trumpian racism. Just as holding law-abiding men (or innocent members of any group) responsible for the actions of their criminals would be little more than open bigotry.

No one is saying that. You are responsible for your own actions, not those of other people.
If you choose to stay silent when your friend makes a racist comment, then you are responsible for that decision as well.

If you choose to stay silent when your friend makes a racist comment, then you are responsible for that decision as well.

And when a complete stranger who happens to share my sex, my race, my social class, or my tennis club does something wrong, am I culpable if I do or say nothing?