Trans women

[Jamiem80]

Probably going to get shot down massively here but a simple question clearly there is a lot of hate for men wanting to be women, but nothing about women becoming men. Do you also frown upon this or is it ok and for what reason?

Actually, I don't know why I bothered. If you'd read anything on this board you'd know the premise/s of your OP were completely flawed

clearly there is a lot of hate for men wanting to be women

Ok firstly no there isn’t. there’s concern that the upcoming self ID measures will put women and girls and children generally at risk. Do you understand the difference? Or are you trying to state as fact something which isn’t true to create a starting point of victim hood? Frame the debate correctly: no one hates trans women, they have a right to exist and to not suffer discrimination and they are protected under law. If self ID comes in it WILL harm women, girls and children.

but nothing about women becoming men well that’s odd isn’t it? Transmen retain female patterns of violent and sexual offending, which is basically a tiny fraction of what men do. They aren’t a threat. And because, as I said above the debate is about safety not blanket hatred of transpeople then it’s not a big issue.

.Do you also frown upon this as above. If we all loathed transpeople we’d be equally against transmen wouldnt we? And we aren’t. Nor are we anti trans. We are concerned for the safety of women and children. Because self ID will damage that.

@Picassospaintbrush hilarious and true.

ToeToToe do you think then that it would be ok for a 10 year old boy to be seeing a vagina

How would he do that exactly?

As everyone else said, no hate for transpeople here.

As the mother of an almost 10 year old boy I can tell you that he would be horrified to have to get undressed in front of girls, or to have girls get undressed in front of him. Let alone adult women.

He doesn't mind getting changed with other boys for swimming at school though.

If a transman got totally naked in front of a boy who is with his dad in a sex segregated men's changing room I guess it could happen and the boy might also see breasts which have been binded.

There have been loads of threads on concerns for transmen particularly surrounding GNC young girls. The Girl Guides issue had a lot of concern that the Guides wanted to edge out young transmen and support them in leaving.

When Jack Munroe came out as a transman there were endless thread that she was on directly that were gender critical but supportive. (I think she changed back again after hearing a lot of GC common sense)

Sorry I might have unintentionally misgendered JM there. Honestly I can't remember if they prefer "they" pronouns or he/she right now.

How ignorant, OP. The feminist position on trans men/TIFs is generally one of concern and sorrow at the possibility that the aggressively gendered, patriarchal society we live in may lead young women to believe that if they are to reject femininity they must also reject their own bodies.

Generally speaking, the majority position on this board is compassion for dysphoric male people who are also rejecting their own bodies - but that dysphoria doesn't mean you are actually a woman. And the majority position is also that the My Penis Is Female brigade constitute an active and aggressive threat to women's places of safety, services, and affirmative action schemes.

HTH.

AllyMcBeagle

Instead anyone will just be able to complete a form

Only people who make a statutory declaration stating that they intend to live as a women for the rest of their lives. And I wouldn't call declaring a statutory declaration just completing a form. Statutory declarations have to be sworn in front of a solicitor or other commissioner for oaths. And the solicitor will advise on the consequences of a false declaration - jail for up to 2 years.

man can legally become a woman without making any changes ... and have a legal right to enter eg women's toilets

In England and Wales it is not the case today that a man who legally becomes a woman has a legal right to enter a women's toilet and it won't be the case if legal self-id goes through.

Also female sports are an issue

There is not an issue due to the proposed move to legal self-id. The GRA specifically excludes sports. Whether and in which circumstances transwomen can compete in female sports is down to the governing bodies.

So in summary none of the concerns you raise would come about as a move to legal self-id.

@Jamiem80 What is your view on women in history or literature being diagnosed as 'trans men' because they challenged the restrictive gender stereotypes of the time? Are you comfortable with the idea that if a woman 'acts like a man' then she actually is a man?

Sarah, self id itself Is not the directs issue, except in that it removes a medical safety net for a group of people with very high self harm rates. Not a minor problem in itself

Self id is pushed by Many of the same people pushing for changes in the equality act or for changes in society that would negatively affect women. And indeed self id law could be seen as promoting those changes in society. especially when misinformation abounds.

they intend to live as a women for the rest of their lives.

Remind me what this means again? It doesn’t require surgery, does it mean wearing skirts and make up? Using a woman’s name? Using women’s spaces? Or not having penetrative sex?

How would anyone prove or disprove they are “living as a woman”?

And the solicitor will advise on the consequences of a false declaration - jail for up to 2 years.

This point has been brought up several times, but you haven't yet explained how you show that somebody is making a false declaration.

In England and Wales it is not the case today that a man who legally becomes a woman has a legal right to enter a women's toilet and it won't be the case if legal self-id goes through.

Please could you link to the information that has led you to this conclusion.

Only people who make a statutory declaration stating that they intend to live as a women for the rest of their lives.

As Bearsinmotion says above "living as a woman" is a meaningless undefined phrase, so any requirement to do so is likely to be unenforceable.

Women can wear men's clothes. Some women can grow beards. Honestly, it's a nonsense.

In England and Wales it is not the case today that a man who legally becomes a woman has a legal right to enter a women's toilet and it won't be the case if legal self-id goes through.

They do have rights to use women's loos under the Equality Act. Whilst there are in theory exceptions for single-sex services, any service provider will struggle to justify their use in relation to cubicled bathrooms given the way the legislation is drafted and the EHRC's guidance.

Can I draw everyone's attention to Ibi-Pippi again?
www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/35dm73/meet_ibipippi_the_lesbian_trapped_in_the_body_of/
As a lawyer who has specialised in the Equality Act I can say I am very concerned that this kind of thing will happen over here if self ID is brought in. The legislation isn't strong enough to keep out artists, pranksters and most unfortunately men who are seeking to abuse women.

Also female sports are an issue
There is not an issue due to the proposed move to legal self-id.

I didn't say it was - it's another problem of men identifying as women (hence the use of the word 'also'). This thread isn't all about self ID.

So in summary none of the concerns you raise would come about as a move to legal self-id.

They do and if you think that they don't then you are ill-informed.

Fear of the risks from all people born male (including those who identify as female and those who don't) is what you see on this site. And anger towards those who fight against women's right to stand up for themselves against people born male. That could be a male rights activist, a trans rights activist, a liberal "feminist," or gender ideologists (blue brain pink brain advocates). There is a lot of concern for girls who identify as male but those girls also often grow up to be gender ideologists and they harm women's rights. Hope that helps

All the points have been argued so eloquently by the amazing women on this board.

I would only add that I am a Commissioner for Oaths. People come in and swear Statutory Declarations in front of me every day. I have no idea whether they are telling the truth or not nor am I supposed to
My only role is to confirm that they are who they say they are. So personally I think they are meaningless.

Sarah I’ve posted this before, but I play rugby and my team had to play against a trans woman and it was fucking brutal. 5 catastrophic injuries (blown knees, shattered collar bones etc) all caused by contact with someone built entirely differently from us. The TW was playing for a military women’s rugby team against our team who play 2 leagues below premiership. Muscle mass, weight and bulk, pace, shoulder strength, everything. It was like hitting/being hit by a train. I play women’s sport and rugby is a tough enough sport without playing against men. I did not sign up for that.

Probably going to get shot down massively here but a simple question clearly there is a lot of hate for men wanting to be women, but nothing about women becoming men. Do you also frown upon this or is it ok and for what reason?

There is not hate. But transwomen are focused on more in the feminism section of MN because...feminists care about the rights of female people. And self-ID will effectively end all that feminists have fought for and all progress that has been made. Which is probably why the trans movement is so attractive to MRAs.

It is not the job of feminists to fight for the rights of men to sex segregated spaces and such. That would be the job of men, if they have an issue. Feminism is not about a group of women fighting for everyone else, though many seem to think it is. Its main (or only maybe..) focus is on advancing the rights of women, to bring us to actual equality with men. Except right now, its fighting to preserve the rights already won, as some seem to want to roll back protections for women, and will yell 'bigot' at any woman who objects to losing her rights. Progressive, eh?

Wow, Nagsnova.

surely if you ignore transmen and just allow them to be men

Just allow? Like we have any choice in the matter or have any power to stop them? If someone is going to transition and take hormones or have surgeries, I don't really get a say in that any more than I have a say in any of their personal or medical choices. I can do no more than be a listening ear and gently discuss my concerns when a friend takes T against medical recommendation, when a friend is taking multiple times the recommended about of E because she likes how it makes her feel and hopes it will help her change faster. I'm not ignoring any of it, but I can't really stop them either. I certainly can't stop what they call themselves any more than they can stop what I call myself.

We don't have superpowers. We can speak out on the highly questionable idea of legal self-ID, on the importance of single sex spaces and that unisex spaces should be beside and not in place of single sex spaces, we can do what we can for better services, we can try to get out there the risks of these medications and surgeries, but none of us can magically stop anyone calling themselves whatever or transitioning.

I think calling concerns around personal safety and these medications, particularly on young people, 'frowning upon them' really dismissive. I'm worried about organ atrophy and the raised risks of heart attacks and depression and how much it messes people who are holding onto this as their only hope of feeling happy when it doesn't deliver on it while our mental health services are far too underfunded to begin to help. I'm worried about vulnerable people, on all sides, not being able or feeling able to get the care and support they need and feeling cut off from activities and society. I try to avoid 'the sky is falling' mentality but we already have people hurting. It's not frowning upon them to be worried and I think it's pretty rude to tell those concerned that we're 'just letting it happen'.

Goodness Nagsnova that is horrendous, you’re saying 5 female players suffered significant injuries injuries in a single match playing against a transwoman? How did your team even manage to finish the game with that many players injured!?!

Has there been any follow on to this - concerns raised to the governing body, awareness of the case raised (other than posting here of course!). Was this in the UK?

DN4GeekinDerby

Well said.

The death threats and rape threats that Feminist women receive on a daily basis from men are expressions of hatred. I think we can all agree on that.
I would appreciate it if you, @Jamiem80, would please give an example of what you consider "clearly there is a lot of hate for men wanting to be women, "
so that we can all be on the same page with regard to the definition of hatred, and expressions of hatred.
Thank you in advance for your attention to this important detail.

@vaggiemite men can't become women? You missed the whole sexual organ operation phenomenon?

How does a cosmetic operation on genitals change someone's sex, @Nogodsnomasters ?