Trans women

[Jamiem80]

Probably going to get shot down massively here but a simple question clearly there is a lot of hate for men wanting to be women, but nothing about women becoming men. Do you also frown upon this or is it ok and for what reason?

Thank goodness. There aren't many places left.

No there aren't. I think that's called progress and civilisation.

Brave New World. Comply or Die.

Mamaryllis - so was there a show of hands before and after, and if so how did it go ... were the women present under any constraint (other than their socialisation in Being Nice) to be honest?

I was going to make a point and not go, but a - that would lead to all sorts of HR related ishoos. And b - I was mildly interested to see what she had to say.
So far, none of the obligatory pronouns on email signature blocks, nor mandatory pronoun rounds at meetings have been adopted.
I’d actually really like to invite her for a beer, and discuss what no one dared say at the meeting. I have no doubt that she would have me sacked though, just for wanting to discuss. And I need my job.

She didn’t ask at the end. She bottled I think. She made a brief speech about how she hoped that we fully understood that she was truly a woman like all other women.
I was fairly glad tbh.

Cwenthryth:

Here:
twitter.com/Henriettaspoon/status/998623124173283328

She asked at the beginning. I didn’t put my hand up. At that point she was doing the whole ‘hey I’m being totally open and I want you to be honest with me’. Then two hours of ‘it’s not acceptable and you must believe I am a woman because I say so and once I was scared of a man and I don’t like my penis showing in a swimsuit, and pretending to believe I am a woman and using female pronouns isn’t good enough because I can tell what you are thinking and you must truly believe I am a woman otherwise you are responsible for transwomen killing themselves and you have blood on your hands.’ Etc etc

No there aren't. I think that's called progress and civilisation.

You don't think society should encourage critical thinking, which is what that post was about? Righto. Interesting. You do you.

OMG - India W's antics in the CBB house has now become a work training program.

I think this is 're-education' that Stonewall think we women need. Heaven help us all.

You don't think society should encourage critical thinking,

Yes critical thinking of course. I do lots of that as well. It's the pleasure and delight in misgendering that many on here indulge themselves in like some sort of irresistible habit I was referring to.

@Mamaryllis did anyone complain about the mind controlling about the ' mandatory trans awareness session at work'.

There should be a chance for anonymous feedback. If there is not you could ask for it.

I would never dream of misgendering a transwoman I encountered in RL (and I do know and regularly chat to two transwomen who are very nice people). It's the enforcement of this politeness, regardless of the actions of the transwoman in question, that I object to.

Let me repeat the question I asked you upthread, Super. Do you think a rape victim should be forced to refer to her male bodied attacker by female pronouns while giving evidence in court? (Thinking of Davina Ayrton, the person in Sheffield who went on the run, the rapist who had to be moved from a women's prison for molesting the other inmates - it does happen).

After all, Maria MacLachlan was instructed by the judge to refer to the male-bodied individual who assaulted her as "she" while giving evidence, despite the fact that effectively being forced to police your language while giving evidence must significantly add to the stress of appearing in court and run the risk of prejudicing court proceedings by confusing the witness, jury, and making the witness artificially less credible as they continually hesitate in giving their testimony

Nope. No complaints. I made the point unequivocally (verbally) to my boss that I objected to the assumption that we were in need of training on the subject. But she knows that there are a raft of gender-based policies at work that I am concerned about, as they impact biological women negatively by prioritizing trans individuals. She recognizes my concerns. Her boss arranged for the training sessions via HR, so at present we are at an impasse.

@FermatsTheorem what a brilliant and clear answer.

The idea of women 'indulging' in misgendering trans women as some sort of secret luxury is so utterly bizarre! When I want to indulge myself or's Liner black chocolate with sea salt for me!

Yes critical thinking of course. I do lots of that as well.

It's the pleasure and delight in misgendering that many on here indulge themselves in like some sort of irresistible habit I was referring to.

That wasn't actually the point being discussed. It was about the lack of places online which still allow critical thought. So your clever clever reply you jumped in with just made you look silly.

sorry not "or's Liner" - It's Lindt www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/266726834

Our HR aren’t very... amenable. The last time I made a formal approach to them after an HR arranged session (which was ironically a feedback session about the results of an anonymous employee survey) I spent an hour and a half in a private meeting questioning the way the session had been handled (HR demanded outing of anonymous responses criticizing management in front of our management team) our department was told we would no receive no support from HR and should sort ourselves out. I’m not convinced that providing session feedback is wise

@Mamaryllis they sound mega shit! I'd not bother with the feedback then! But i wonder if your speaker actually put more people off then actually made anyone feel better about 'trans inclusiveness.' though it sounds like her job was more making people think things about her

the enforcement of this politeness, regardless of the actions of the transwoman in question, that I object to.

Fermat I think that's a difficult one. If it's a human right to be referred to as your preferred gender then it doesn't come with any conditions - because that's the point of human rights. The only 'condition' is that you're human. They don't depend on anything other than that.

I would find it difficult and I probably would have done exactly the same thing as Maria MacLachlan. But that doesn't mean it's right. If the court says something is right, then it's right. That's how the legal system works.

'indulging' in misgendering trans women as some sort of secret luxury is so utterly bizarre!

Italian I see it on here all the time. You can see the enjoyment some people get from misgendering. Watch Posie's latest videos you can see the glee in her face and laughter in her voice as she misgenders Jenner and Munroe; impersonating the south park Jenner with a masculine voice and saying "Mnroe". (=a) They seem to do it like it's some sort of hobby. It is prejudice and bullying and it's spectacularly clear to see.

It was about the lack of places online which still allow critical thought. So your clever clever reply you jumped in with just made you look silly.

Eresh It's what is meant by critical thought here though. Sometimes critical thought is a (thin) disguise for misgendering and TWAM over and over again.

That's the thing though - the right to life, the right to food, shelter, freedom from torture, freedom of conscience, freedom of belief, freedom of speech... by comparison, "And I assert my human right to get called by my chosen pronouns" - that's the point at which I just think someone is being an attention seeking fool.

Yes, it's nicer to live in a society where people are on the whole polite and kind to one another, but not if that politeness and kindness is coerced (at which point it becomes meaningless), and certainly not if it comes at the cost of free speech.

If it's a human right to be referred to as your preferred gender it is absolutely not. The rest of your argument then it doesn't come with any conditions - because that's the point of human rights. The only 'condition' is that you're human is therefore null.

If the court says something is right, then it's right. That's how the legal system works. absolutely not the case and nor how the law works. If something is legal, then it is legal. But a court is not the arbiter of what is morally right.

One would think there was never a bad law, or judge, or legal system, or court, in the whole wide world.

It isn't all that often that women can indulge themselves in plain truths openly stated, so I am not surprised that they take pleasure in the experience.

Men have argued for many centuries that obedience is their natural right and entitlement. Far as I know they still put it in their marriage contracts. It is the basis for the aggrieved entitlement world view that prompts them to violence when they are deprived of the obedience they consider their due.

@SupermatchGame I can't comment on the video you mention as I have not seen it.

I actually find it very disturbing when male criminals are referred to as 'she', it is dishonest.

But for regular people, it doesn't mean that people will necessarily 'misgender' people when they meet them. All this policing women and how they speak actually pushes me further away from feeling sympathetic about trans issues. And I think that is actually quite sad.