A bare breast on a t-shirt at a conference

[poopsqueak]

I was at a conference yesterday with many speakers.

The audience was of a digital nature.

One speaker came on stage with a t-shirt with a woman with a bare breast on (faded and 'artsy') and I didn't think much of it. He was 35, male and talking about an organisation he had founded. The talk was very interesting.

When the next speaker started the conference organiser came on stage and apologised for the t-shirt of the previous speaker and said he hadn't seen it prior to the speaker going on stage and mentioned a 'Twitter incident'

When the next speaker started half the audience were on their phones seeing what the 'incident' was. I found this very rude to the speaker who was speaking while lots of people were looking at their phones.

Turns out a person had left in the prior speaker posting on Twitter saying that they were 'shaking with anger' at the t-shirt and 'crying in the toilet'. They used the official conference hash so people could see. People began discussing and the person who was upset sent a lot of tweets about it.

I'm really in two minds about this. I don't think the t-shirt was great, but the guy said he was jet lagged and had come straight from the plane so maybe hadn't changed. I feel torn between the sides of a speaker wearing a sexualised t shirt on stage and what I see as a another person who I think has had gross overreaction that has cause upset for the conference runners.

I feel like the guy who ran the conference apologised as soon as he could and did what needed.

To further confuse me, the person who was upset then accosted the guy with the shirt outside and they had words. The person then tweeted that they had felt victimised by the shirt wearers language.

Really I just want some others perspectives on this incident as I am I two minds. I am all for (and talk actions to ensure) the progression of women in tech, but feel the slightly hysterical reaction to a t-shirt mire the message? What do you think?

Thanks @metrorider. I have been feeling pretty helpless about it. I feel bad for not making a fuss, like I’m not living up to my feminist ideals, but I know making any sort of complaint would have consequences I’m not prepared to deal with. You’re right, there’s no way to win this one, there isn’t a reaction that will be considered appropriate.

@timeisnotaline but spreading it via social media is completely fair

YY. To quote Danny from Brassed Off, "if you're ashamed of it, don't say it". If you don't want your porn tshirt to be criticised on social media, don't wear it to give a conference talk. It's quite obvious from his reaction that he's proud of the shirt, which is a bigger a problem and needs to be called out. I personally wouldn't want to be alone with that guy and I will be recommending to my manager at work that we don't send delegates to any conference that he is speaking at.

Starzig my father used to objectify under-dressed young women though not to the extent of having a t shirt of them. It's one of the reasons that I've barely had any relationship with him since leaving home. Your DD may not feel able to say anything now but there might be future consequences.

As for the shaking, I might shake as well, not just because I'd seen the t shirt but because I knew I'd have to speak up and what the consequences might be. I spoke up once about rape jokes (in my 20s nearly 30 years ago now) and I was sexually harassed and hounded out of a job and experienced some of the worst months of my life whilst unemployed, and that sort of experience doesn't just go away.

Any man who would wear a tshirt like that is not fit to be a parent. They know it makes Women uncomfortable, that’s exactly why they wear them.
I work in a very techy place, 90% young men - none of them wear anything like that, even the arrogant dickhead ‘top salesman’ .

Gender apostate I agree, my office, well my dept, Development has 5 women out of 50(ish) and we are all in leadership roles. I don't think any of my colleagues would wear a top like that.

Yep, I work in tech, in a more 'traditional' country - none of the men I work with would dream of wearing that shirt to work. They are professionals.

This man wasn't 'stupid' for wearing the t-shirt, he owns that shirt, and he wore that shirt on a day when he was going to do a massive, public talk. He chose this, and he is entirely responsible for it. At best, he was thoughtless (note, thoughtless at the impact the shirt would have at what it says to the world to own such a shirt, not thoughtless at being 'caught' wearing it). At worst, he's an MRA who thinks it's his right to wear that kind of shirt and objectify women. TBH, nothing on that continuum puts him in a good light.

So why didn’t you speak up Op? You’re critiquing her response but you just sat there and did nothing. Which is worse - her shaking after confronting a man and being tested aggressively or you, who said nothing, and criticising her taking to social media. At least acknowledge that it’s scary to challenge these things, particularly in the context of a conference and cut her some slack for her response...

The man was entirely at fault.

who complained tweeted about it (and about crying and shaking) while his talk was still going on. I don't think taking to SM before speaking to the offender about it is OK, actually. It's activating a process and a discourse which is intended to whip up sympathy for her and antagonism for the bloke. Getting an albeit virtual crowd going before challenging the offender doesn't sit right with me. What would have been appropriate -and necessary - would have been to stand up during the Q&As and say 'What's with the T-shirt?

She's not affiliated to the person giving the presenation or the company he works for. Why does it matter if she chose to use SM to highlight the sexist attitude of this presenter. People live tweet from conferences all the time and that includes criticism. I think it was appropriate for her to call this out to a wider audience. Just like someone would live tweet a presentation slide with homophobic or racist content.

I can't imagine a man wearing something like that to speak at a conference in my industry, it's quite tradiitonal and thinking about it maybe that's safer...

The man who wore this t-shirt to present at a conference is a cunt.
I wouldn't be particuarly impressed to see a man walking around on the high street in this.
But standing up to give a speech wearing that is an advert about what feels about women and men and their place in the world. Yes of cours it was a massive "fuck you" to every woman in the audience.

Focussing on the woman's reaction with criticism is simply

1. To minimise what her complaint was, distract attention from what the man did (standard practice applied to all sorts of complaints women make up to and including certain serious crimes)
2. To warn other women not to do this, as they will be criticised too

Whole thing is toxic and if they are are in a position of mentoring and advising young women not to get their knickers in a twist about stuff that I thought (hoped) had died out ie images of naked women in work situations, then that's very not good.

People need to get a firm grip on life

@AnElderlyLadyOfMediumHeight and others saying it was inappropriate to tweet about a talk/speaker while they were still speaking - have you attended many tech conferences, web/digital/etc conferences in particular?

It is so common to live-tweet a talk while it is happening that it's considered something worth commenting on if it isn't happening. People give their responses in real time. Some will discuss on Twitter while it is happening - basically tweeting out their notes.

So I can see how, having left the talk, it would be entirely natural to tweet to say why.

I can absolutely guarantee you that I would do EXACTLY the same in those circumstances. Except, I probably wouldn't approach the speaker afterwards because I wouldn't feel like I "owed" him that courtesy. I would be too pissed off to want to go near him or his fawning entourage.

@CoupleOfPushBack

The people that are getting a firm grip on these incidents are the ones paying out to lawyers and paying out legal settlements over harassment and bullying. Many organisations are trying to get a firm grip on this as its expensive, time wasting and reputation damaging having to handle out of control men in the workplace.

But hey, I think you mean women should shut up.

@slightlyglittermaned @AnElderlyLadyOfMediumHeight and others saying it was inappropriate to tweet about a talk/speaker while they were still speaking - have you attended many tech conferences, web/digital/etc conferences in particular?

It is so common to live-tweet a talk while it is happening that it's considered something worth commenting on if it isn't happening. People give their responses in real time. Some will discuss on Twitter while it is happening - basically tweeting out their notes.

Good point. It's pretty common at FLOSS conferences to have the talk livestreamed and people who are watching via livestreaming give real-time feedback and questions via Internet Relay Chat. Often there will be people sitting in the audience with their laptops during Q&A, reading out questions on behalf of remote viewers who've submitted them via IRC. It makes sense for that practice to have evolved to use Twitter. If I would deem it reasonable to call bad behaviour out on IRC, it should be OK to call it out on Twitter.

metrorider Yeah, this is something that probably seems alien if you don't go to that kind of conference - so I wondered if some people are reacting strongly on the thread because they are misinterpreting tweeting as something extraordinarily public and aggressive instead of, well, just the normal place you discuss stuff?

Obviously that doesn't apply to the OP who was there herself.

Tbf, I'm not au fait with the tech field. If the speaker could reasonably have expected responses to his talk (incl his appearance incl T-shirt) to be discussed on Twitter during his talk, because that is the way things are done in that field, that does change things a bit, I think. Still doesn't mean I think it's ideal to take an objection to something (however justified that objection is, which it definitely is here. I'm undecided as to whether I would have walked out or raised it in the Q&As) elsewhere than to the originator in the first instance.

I might be inclined to think the crying and mental breakdown are a bit much, but I think the take home should be don’t wear pictures of half-naked chicks in a professional setting. She wouldn’t have had anything to overact to if the speaker hadn’t insisted on being a bit of a bell-end.

On a side-note what is the objection to the word hysterical? I get that in Latin it means of the / from the womb, but don’t we use the word to describe both men and women? I mean I know I have, plus in the context of comedy being hysterical is usually a good thing?

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg nailed it and I think it was a huge fuck you to women - and any tears were a normal response to blatant misogyny being normalised by bystander bullying on a massive scale.

metro nailed it as well - Under patriarchy, women cannot react appropriately to abuse because men deem all reactions to be inappropriate. Instead of policing women who speak out, try policing the men who cause the problem.

what is the objection to the word hysterical?

Hysterical is used as putdown to women displaying appropriate responses to being fucked over

AnElderlyLadyOfMediumHeight
I would normally say negative feedback on a talk isn't appropriate while someone is still speaking - but if someone is effectively on attack in their talk, does that change things for you?

Also, it's not uncommon for there to be no Q&A after a talk. Last few tech conferences I've been to haven't had any. But some have read Tweets out!

I've seen a tech speaker directly attack a female techie in his slides during his talk, knowing she was there. I thought it was entirely appropriate for her and others to react immediately and strongly via Twitter. Do you think she should have waited, and meekly approached him alone, outside, surrounded by all his friends and supporters?

I think if it's likely that someone will react aggressively in person then it is also problematic to say it is only valid to object in person, afterwards (obviously she didn't know that at the time, nor did she realise that his "entourage" would become aggressive enough that she needed to shout for help from a nearby friend. But we live in a society where aggressive responses from men towards women who offer even the mildest criticism are common, and condoned. It's not really a surprise.)

I think it's utter bullshit for an invited speaker to claim wide-eyed innocence about wearing a t-shirt like that. He is on attack. He's rubbing the fucking bitches' faces in it every time he wears it. That's not a mild message. It's a very strong one, intended to make him look like a dominant man who doesn't hesitate to aggressively assert his power over the women in his space.

I think hysterical has some sort of connection to the uterus in its origins. So it's quite a specific insult, on the level of "time of the month dear?".

www.imdb.com/title/tt1435513/

A movie about the Victorian view on hysteria and how it led to Doctors giving women orgasms in their surgeries as a treatment.....

It's a good film. A little light relief......

As I said, if immediate feedback during a talk via Twitter is normal in the field, and he knew this, then to a degree he deserved all he got.

No, she shouldn't have approached him alone afterwards. Even if no Q&As, the best response would have been from the conference floor immediately after the talk. I think speaking out clearly, simply and strongly then would have gained her a lot of support.

IIRC, 'hysteria' was historically the condition of the 'wandering womb'. It implied then that the woman's reproductive organ determined her physical and emotional state and behaviour. Analogously, it implies now that a woman is being irrational because she is a woman (or, if used of a man, that he is being woman-like). 'Hysterics' in the sense of uncontrollable emphasises the 'uncontrollable' aspect. So yes, a deeply problematic word we should not be using.

Argh. 'Hysterics' in the sense of uncontrollable laughter.

Ok well that’s a word I can take out of my usual rotation of thanks for explaining why. I guess in the context of comedy it’s still ok though?