A bare breast on a t-shirt at a conference

[poopsqueak]

I was at a conference yesterday with many speakers.

The audience was of a digital nature.

One speaker came on stage with a t-shirt with a woman with a bare breast on (faded and 'artsy') and I didn't think much of it. He was 35, male and talking about an organisation he had founded. The talk was very interesting.

When the next speaker started the conference organiser came on stage and apologised for the t-shirt of the previous speaker and said he hadn't seen it prior to the speaker going on stage and mentioned a 'Twitter incident'

When the next speaker started half the audience were on their phones seeing what the 'incident' was. I found this very rude to the speaker who was speaking while lots of people were looking at their phones.

Turns out a person had left in the prior speaker posting on Twitter saying that they were 'shaking with anger' at the t-shirt and 'crying in the toilet'. They used the official conference hash so people could see. People began discussing and the person who was upset sent a lot of tweets about it.

I'm really in two minds about this. I don't think the t-shirt was great, but the guy said he was jet lagged and had come straight from the plane so maybe hadn't changed. I feel torn between the sides of a speaker wearing a sexualised t shirt on stage and what I see as a another person who I think has had gross overreaction that has cause upset for the conference runners.

I feel like the guy who ran the conference apologised as soon as he could and did what needed.

To further confuse me, the person who was upset then accosted the guy with the shirt outside and they had words. The person then tweeted that they had felt victimised by the shirt wearers language.

Really I just want some others perspectives on this incident as I am I two minds. I am all for (and talk actions to ensure) the progression of women in tech, but feel the slightly hysterical reaction to a t-shirt mire the message? What do you think?

I have to agree, having read through the thread, the reaction that has seemed most inappropriate and has shocked me the most is the OP's reaction - when she claims to be on a women in tech board!!!

OP - you have chosen, consistently, to scrutinise and criticise how a woman reacts to blatant sexism in your industry rather than focus on the actual sexism. Why are you on a women in tech board? Is it to stop female colleagues getting uppity, because you surely aren't their ally.

Can we talk about the "this woman is making me and other women look bad and that's why we can't have nice things" thing that the OP and a few others are doing? This reaction comes up a lot and leads to a lot of throwing other women under the bus, and I think it's important to think your way through (ie that lurkers might benefit from reading that conversation).

^ THIS, AAK, just THIS

Oh god, give over. Ah yes I shall resign from my position because someone on Mumsnet shouted me down.

People are allowed to have differing opinions and take differing actions to yourself (and myself) and THATS OK.

We are also allowed to critical evaluate both men (with shitty t-shirts and attitudes) and women.

That is not what you were doing though OP, both in the OP and subsequent comments. You were berating her for being upset at blatant misogyny.

You need to review your attitude towards the position you hold. Because it does not seem to be on the side of women in your industry.

And yes, you should be defensive and upset. You were in the wrong on this. Very much so.

OP, when your critical evaluation has led you to call out the woman's response to outrageous sexism, rather than the outrageous sexism itself, then I do think you need to self reflect on your unconscious bias, particularly as you have a role intended to promote female participation in your industry.

Do not be so defensive, use the responses to elf-reflect and grow and you can be a real asset and support to young women (such as my daughter) who may be interested in a career in your industry. We need allies.

Look I’m not a feminist by any stretch of the imagination, and people pointing out the breaking down in toilets is a bit of an overreaction of which I agree, BUT what precipitated this woman feeling like that?

Policing this woman’s behaviour because it lets the side down isn’t really conducive to making the space a comfortable place for women to operate in. I’ve seen workplace environments where men shout and bully and that behaviour isn’t extrapolated to all men.

A woman crying in the toilets one time isn’t really all that bad in the grand scheme of things. Besides she STILL has a point about the T-Shirt...

poop, what exactly is your critical evaluation of the man with the shitty t-shirt?

You've concentrated on the woman's reaction to it. If you think that they were both equally wrong, for example, you could spend half of the content of your posts focusing on his actions. But instead, you are concentrating on evaluating her actions. It comes across as a bit like "he was inappropriate but she did this, she wasn't right to think this, she shouldn't be hysterical, she should have spoken to him, she should not have spoken to him, she should not have put it in Twitter, gross overreaction that upset the organisers, she should have complained to the organisers, she should have offered feedback, she should have let it lie".

I think that is what others are objecting to. The laser focus on her actions while his actions get labelled by you as "silly t-shirt" and then later "wasn't appropriate but I wasn't bothered" with no further evaluation whatsoever.

My evaluation of him was that he had an inappropriate T-shirt on and had a shitty attitude.

Also was very goady on twitter afterwards. Actually he was very goady to other people beforehand on twitter too, so I hope it's noted that I also think he is a prick.

When I filled in my feedback form I did point out that had the organisers looked at his twitter feed beforehand and done some research they may have noted his attitude preceding the conference. And maybe he would not have been invited on.

Why did it take 13 pages to get to, oh hey, maybe we should look at what he did and not just how she reacted?

Also was very goady on twitter afterwards. Actually he was very goady to other people beforehand on twitter too, so I hope it's noted that I also think he is a prick.

YES! This is far more the kind of response 'we' needed to see being in focus. It is about him being a shitbag misogynist, not the women he upsets along the way!

If he's a goady fucker and then some people react the problem is him being a goady fucker, not the fact that some people are reacting.

The primary subject of this thread, whether the OP knew it or not, is the hostile work environment that women within such industries face, that this was a conference is neither here nor there, it is a snapshot of the overall sector.

By the OP's further investigation, shocked-not-shocked, he turns out to be a goady shitbag. I could have told you that!

No one but a shitbag, even owns a t-shirt like that, let alone wears it to a professional gig. My gawd, he may as well have had "I am a complete and utter shitbag" sign over his head, cartoon style. That is how obvious it is.

That you did not recognise his actions, rather than her reactions, is a learning exercise for you. If you take this onboard, instead of expecting all females to 'toughen up' (and take the misogyny), is good news. The ultimate aim of feminism in this regard, is the elimination of misogyny, not the increasing tolerance to it.

TL;DR - if you learn from this, our work is done!
It's not personal. It is for the greater good.

I've had some inappropriate coworkers, but none of them have ever worn something like that to a work event, because they're not fucking idiots, and neither is the man in this example. Nobody is so stupid that they don't realize wearing something like that will get up people's noses. That's why they're wearing it. If they were just being sloppy and not thinking they'd turn up in a shirt that they got as a freebie at a previous conference, possibly with the name of a start-up that no longer exists on it for that extra authenticity factor.

Maybe this is a valuable lesson then.

Your original posts were minimising his actions, surely you can see that? The dodgy t-shirt was dismissed as silly and then inappropriate but I wasn't bothered.

And now, having found out some more information about him, here we are with his t-shirt as "shitty" and him as "prick".

You gave him the benefit of the doubt to start with. Even though that t-shirt may as well say I AM A MISOGYNIST PRICK on it, you still decided to give him a pass.

The real problem is that you didn't give her the benefit of the doubt. She didn't get a pass. You were quick to condemn her reactions despite the fact that, as you now know, she was absolutely right about him.

And that is something worth thinking about. Easy to examine the actions of him and her, but examining our own thoughts and actions is a damn sight trickier. But it is the only way to do things better next time.

@popchyk: The real problem is that you didn't give her the benefit of the doubt. She didn't get a pass. You were quick to condemn her reactions despite the fact that, as you now know, she was absolutely right about him.

Not only that, but she was held to a much higher standard for her in-the-moment, unprepared-for reaction than he was for his premeditated, deliberate decision to wear that tshirt. Sexist double-standards, much?

Horrible misogynistic man wears a highly inappropriate porno tshirt of a semi naked woman designed to convey a certain message to a work event.
Woman sees horrible misogynistic porno tshirt designed to convey a certain message and gets understandably upset.
I cannot understand how a cognitively competent adult has such trouble extrapolating this information. Somebody does something to upset, somebody understands that and gets upset. End the fuck of as far as I’m concerned.
The takeaway from this is, if you’re a horrible misogynist twat who goes out of their way to upset people and you get the desired effect, I hope they shit on your career and piss all over your life.
To women who excuse this bullshit, men will fuck over your life without you deserving it or them even trying to. You go and try to fuck them over because they fucked you over and see what you get. Feminists are saying this shit for a reason, and when you’ve been dragged through the dirt and learnt the hard way we’ll still be saying this shit, for a reason.

AngryAttackKittens

"Why did it take 13 pages to get to, oh hey, maybe we should look at what he did and not just how she reacted?"

Just because someone reacts upset doesn't mean we should give them credit (think TRAs victimizing themselves with "TERF words are literal violence").

Anyway, I misunderstood and thought she left the talk to cry rather than the crying was a reaction to what the speaker said to her after, so I apologize and take back what I said.

That was discussed near the beginning of the thread, so maybe actually read before diving in looking for a way to shift blame to the "overreacting" woman rather than the man who actually caused the problem.

@mrghardy: Just because someone reacts upset doesn't mean we should give them credit (think TRAs victimizing themselves with "TERF words are literal violence").

No, we don't. We look at the perpetrator's actions and assess those to decide whether the perp did something wrong. Which he did. The reaction of the complainant is actually irrelevant to whether the perp did something wrong. And yet her unplanned reaction to a completely unexpected and inappropriate image was discussed at length in this thread by certain posters who simultaneously ignored his premeditated deliberate clothing choice and the message he was conveying through it.

From the OP: I didn't think much of it.

To read this and later be told that you had any responsibility for women in the workplace indicates to me that you are ill suited to your job.
By now it should be quite clear to you as well.
Misogynists make poor women's representatives.

I mean, at this point, snore. We've discussed round and round and it's boring now.

It seems you can't have a differing/milder/less polar or scaling opinion here without snarky rude patronising comments or shouting.

I will, despite the silly, dramatic (yes I said dramatic not hysterical, you learn something every day) comments on this thread, continue in my place of work. And my extra curricular scheme to get young girls into development. And I will continue to be thick skinned (and no that does not mean being 'one of the boys' or pandering to men) And thank god I am thick skinned, as you lot are frankly rude. And it's the same people on each thread.

All I can say is that it must be a dull life to live vicariously through MN Feminist boards telling women at every opportunity they aren't Feminist-Ing right.

"All I can say is that it must be a dull life to live vicariously through MN Feminist boards telling women at every opportunity they aren't Feminist-Ing right."

And the snake has fully eaten its own tail.

Tells you all you need to know really