Shon Faye & Ash Shankar review of Gender quake.

[DJLippy]

novaramedia.com/2018/05/14/the-ciscourse/

It's throw a brew at the telly time.

Novaro brats talking about all those nasty terfs 'howling coyotes'.

If they have a GRC they are automatically assigned to the female estate. They share the EA protected characteristic of sex with women. Having a GRC means that they are treated for the vast majority of purposes as if they were female. So it is important to appropriately gatekeep who has one. And not give them to say, Ian Huntley.

Thats not true. As I said there are independant prison authorities in charge of deciding where high risk individuals are held, and a GRC has no bearing on it.

Even still there are still exemptions even with a GRC, and that would be one of them, even if it 'was' relevant.

*You created a problem, berated her for it, stamped your feet about the apparent rampant problem on this board your misrepresentation illustrates, and then have given a luke warm apology which yet again demands answers to your question that has no relevance to this thread.

You are a random faux outrage generator.

You are not a feminist.*

I will bow out of this thread now, as it has become a different topic to the op, you may want to check that other people are also exchanging and moving it away, I can't do it on my own.

As for me being a feminist.... when the board is full of people drooling over the beliefs and output of Jordan Peterson. I have to laugh!
When all trans women are called mra's, and then the current 'god' of them gets fawned over, it really is amazing.

see you on another thread! best wishes..

Go on, give me an example of a TIM with a GRC who is held in the male estate.

I think I'm going to side with @crispbuttyfan on this one.

I believe that there are some individuals who genuinely feel as if they have "been born in the wrong body". I believe that this manifests itself at an early age.

I believe you can attribute this to the fact that all foetuses start off as female, but then something happens to convert them to male. Testosterone exposure in the womb is involved, hence why the clitoris becomes a penis etc.

With "wrong body" transgender people then perhaps something happens in the womb that means the body converts and the mind gets left behind or vice versa

Perhaps the reason why this is unaccepted by many posters on this board is because they don't accept the influence of testosterone on male behaviour, and prefer the theory that differences between the sexes are not innate but are due to nurture.

I think there are valid questions to be asked about the sudden spike in gender dysphoria identifying children and teenagers, especially "masculine" or lesbian identifying teenage girls.

I also don't accept the "postgender" gender identities like non binary or gender fluid etc. If you want to dress androgynously or like the opposite gender than that's fine - expressing your gender in another way doesn't alter your biological sex, or make you as "transgender" as someone that is taking hormones and having surgery to transition

All foetuses do not start off female. Sex is determined at conception. The way sex organs develop in utero does not mean that they change from female to male.

www.menshealth.com/health/a19516412/3-signs-you-started-as-a-girl/

" We all start as a generic embryo. You have a set of male or female sex chromosomes, but the distinction doesn’t kick in until your hormones enter the picture, he explains. Without hormones like testosterone, you would stay on the path to womanhood. And, sorry to say, your body already started developing by the time this decision was made—which means your lady parts were already starting to form."

The X or Y from comes from the sperm! Flippin' heck!

I'm not sure I'd trust any scientist who uses the term "lady parts"!

We all start as a generic embryo. You have a set of male or female sex chromosomes

Surely this is the pertinent sentence here?

We are either xx or xy from the point of conception. I think you just stepped on your own point there.

@fmsfms The embryo comments are bizarre.

The sperm from the male fertilises the egg from the female.
The egg is gestated within the female.
The sex organs are not the first organs to develop, and as a result, people actually believe this means you start off female?

We start off as a ball of dividing cells. The brain and spinal cord develop first, not the penis or vagina. Even before they develop the sex of the fetus can be determined.

The sex organs are not the first organs to develop, and as a result, people actually believe this means you start off female?

This is quite a common gotcha! from transactivists.

The X or Y from comes from the sperm! Flippin' heck!

Evidence of this being a quasi-religious, science-denying cult continues apace!

@elenoftheways "Surely this is the pertinent sentence here?"

If I felt that was the only pertinent sentence I'd have only pasted that sentence. I didn't, because as you can read quite clearly it says "Without hormones like testosterone, you would stay on the path to womanhood." which supports my earlier comment that the male sex hormone influences the development of the foetus.

I really don't think the fact that testosterone influences development is open to debate, but maybe my phrasing was off. I mean you only have to look at how female bodybuilders on steroids develop enlarged clitoris

Some more reading:

“Mammals don’t start as females, they start as a blank slate with XX/XY genetic code, and for the first 5-6 weeks of gestation only the X gene expresses. Then when the Y gene starts expressing (in genetic XY-males), it releases androgens like testosterone, represses some X gene expression (and estrogen development), and expresses specific Y genes. This process is called sexual differentiation and it leads to what we call male and female” factmyth.com/factoids/all-mammals-start-as-female/

So the sex is determined at conception, but the foetus still starts developing as a female, until the male hormones kick in

“"In fact, the first five to six weeks of embryonic development are attributed to the X chromosome alone, and females grow from embryo to fully developed through the influence of only the X chromosome," www.sciencealert.com/watch-we-were-once-all-female

I wonder why there are so many ethics committees involved in sex selection in embryos if we are all "generic", as fmsfms claimed, until the fetus stage two months plus after fertilisation?

Prison instructions for trans prisoners can be downloaded here - scroll down to '17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders'.

The prison service go by legal sex, first and foremost. They're not allowed to ask to see a GRC but they can ask for a birth certificate (the sole remaining thing a GRC is good for). If a prisoner has a female birth cert (original or obtained via a GRC) they will be housed in the female estate unless they present an exceptional risk, in which case they may be moved to a men's prison, purely because this is where the facilities are. They will still be housed separately from men and will be accommodated in line with PSI for female prisoners. TW prisoners with a GRC are treated as female in all circumstances.

There is case law directly referenced in the prison rules linked above that says that even if a tw is in prison for attempted rape, if they have a grc and hence a bc that says 'female', they must be sent to a women's prison. The bar is very low as we have seen in various cases that have made mainstream media.

Only for trans prisoners without a GRC - i.e. those who are legally male - are decisions made on a case by case basis. And the Transgender Case Board are no fools, which is why all those self ID trans sex offenders are still treated as male prisoners in the male estate.

Changing the GRA to a self-ID process would allow all of them to be treated as female. The vast majority would have to be moved to the female estate, with only the few exceptionally dangerous ones remaining in the male estate, but housed there as female prisoners.

Thanks Pencils. I wasn't sure where to find this information to give to crispy earlier.

If I felt that was the only pertinent sentence I'd have only pasted that sentence.

It is the only pertinent sentence. Male people who don't develop properly will not become female. Female is not an absence of maleness.

'I believe that there are some individuals who genuinely feel as if they have "been born in the wrong body".'

I'm sure that's true. The reasons why that happens, though, are purely speculative. At the moment we don't know enough about it to be certain.

The waters have been muddied by a number of people who don't feel from an early age that they have been born in the wrong body, but come to think that might be the case later on, because others have told them that a girl who enjoys kicking a ball around and wearing her hair short must "really" be a boy.

And further muddied by people who don't necessarily "feel" like they've been born in the wrong body, but choose to "identify" as the opposite sex because it seems like a good idea.

If a prisoner has a female birth cert (original or obtained via a GRC) they will be housed in the female estate unless they present an exceptional risk, in which case they may be moved to a men's prison, purely because this is where the facilities are.

Yes. This is important to understand. There are so few Cat A female prisoners that they are mostly accommodated in special - that is, female only - wings within male or youth offender institutions. But they don't share with men. A Cat A male prisoner with a GRC reassignment to women will still be accommodated with women - just other Cat A women.

A Cat A male prisoner with a GRC reassignment to women will still be accommodated with women - just other Cat A women.

Really critical information completely glossed over by our transactivist friends.

I watched the entire thing so you all owe me over an hour of my life back, lol, and I've realised that I'm "womaning" all wrong as I never flick my hair like that, or pout (a lot).

Also, it's all your fault that I've formed the view that TIMs aren't women. I obviously don't have the brains to think for myself; being a middle class sahm, with a uni degree (in science). YOU'RE all very BAD for corrupting me!!

Hair flicking and pouting are clearly essential to womanhood. I must tell my daughters right away and get them lessons.

Anyone else feel like Shon learned how to woman by watching naughties MTV?

I wonder why there are so many ethics committees involved in sex selection in embryos if we are all "generic", as fmsfms claimed, until the fetus stage two months plus after fertilisation?

You beat me to it Picasso. If sex is so wavy-gravy-hormone-washy, it’s kind of baffling that you can do sex selection by sorting sperm with a centrifuge and other methods before you even inseminate. All those whacky embryologists and fertility doctors, eh?