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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shon Faye & Ash Shankar review of Gender quake.

178 replies

DJLippy · 17/05/2018 12:44

novaramedia.com/2018/05/14/the-ciscourse/

It's throw a brew at the telly time.

Novaro brats talking about all those nasty terfs 'howling coyotes'.

OP posts:
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HerFemaleness · 18/05/2018 17:22

I've realised that I'm "womaning" all wrong as I never flick my hair like that, or pout (a lot). sad

You also went to university and studied science. It's no wonder you can't woman correctly when you done gone went and filled your head with all that manly science stuff instead of focusing on the things that really matter, like deciding what to wear!

Datun · 18/05/2018 18:05

A Cat A male prisoner with a GRC reassignment to women will still be accommodated with women - just other Cat A women.

Is that right?

I sort of assumed that they would be in with the men, because of space limitation. I know that there aren't any women in category A, at the moment (?).

So there is a facility in the highest security, to split men and women, and the transwoman, would go with women? If they had a GRC. If there are no women there, do they mingle with the men? Or are they in isolation?

PencilsInSpace · 18/05/2018 18:33

6.3 There may be exceptional cases where it is necessary to refuse a transfer to the female estate for a transgender (male to female) prisoner with a GRC. This can only happen if the risk concerns surrounding the prisoner are sufficiently high that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate. If a transfer is refused, the prisoner will be a female prisoner in the male estate. She must be held separately and according to a female prisoner regime as set out in PSO 4800. This provision exists as the male estate has greater capacity to manage prisoners who pose an exceptionally high risk to others.

Datun · 18/05/2018 18:43

She must be held separately and according to a female prisoner regime as set out in PSO 4800. This provision exists as the male estate has greater capacity to manage prisoners who pose an exceptionally high risk to others.

My bolding. So that's it, then. There are no circumstances under which a male convict with a GRC will not be treated as female, in every single way.

AngryAttackKittens · 18/05/2018 18:44

Radicalized by Mumsnet? Well, I was radicalized at university, and I'm pretty sure Mumsnet didn't exist at that point, so...

These two are the best illustration of Dunning Kruger syndrome I've seen in a while, especially Ash.

Abouttoblow · 18/05/2018 18:51

Jesus Christ on a bike!

Equal to Germaine Greer......nope!

AngryAttackKittens · 18/05/2018 18:56

It looks like picking off GC posters one by one and making them doubt themselves isn't an effective tactic when it's so transparent.

This has been happening for a while and honestly, people doing that, you're not exactly winning points for subtlety.

Ereshkigal · 18/05/2018 19:04

These two are the best illustration of Dunning Kruger syndrome I've seen in a while, especially Ash.

Yep.

Ereshkigal · 18/05/2018 19:04

These two are the best illustration of Dunning Kruger syndrome I've seen in a while, especially Ash.

Yep.

LangCleg · 18/05/2018 19:31

This has been happening for a while and honestly, people doing that, you're not exactly winning points for subtlety.

It has. Best ignored and not pandered to - but often hard to resist!

thebewilderness · 18/05/2018 19:35

It is interesting to me that the transgender advocates response to women's no in every thread easily falls into one of theses categories
Deny
Attack
Reverse
Victim &
Offender

PencilsInSpace · 18/05/2018 19:37

Did Shon go to the same voice coach as Jane Fae? Is there someone out there that is teaching these people that the way to 'pass as a woman' is to be inaudible?

'Now then ladies, shallow breath aaand ... swallow your words!'

DJLippy · 18/05/2018 19:40

This has been happening for a while and honestly, people doing that, you're not exactly winning points for subtlety.

BTW my posts re Shon's awful awful dress sense not just me being catty. Just trying to bring the threat back under control...

OP posts:
PencilsInSpace · 18/05/2018 19:40

Who sent Ash dick picks?

DJLippy · 18/05/2018 19:42

^thread. Freudian slip? Blush

OP posts:
DJLippy · 18/05/2018 19:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PencilsInSpace · 18/05/2018 20:00
Grin
Ereshkigal · 18/05/2018 20:05

Lol Grin

ProfessionalBarren · 18/05/2018 21:14

Actual lol.

PencilsInSpace · 18/05/2018 22:59

This is what Shon had to say about proposed changes to the GRA. It's quite long. I've done my best to present Shon's words as they were spoken and I post without comment.

I have comments but they're best left 'til tomorrow.

Your legal sex is a watery concept in Engish law.

In 2004, Stephen Whittle and Christine Burns for Press For Change, through a judgment in the ECHR, got the GRA 2004 permitted, and it allowed trans people to change their legal sex on their birth certificate by a mechanism called a GRC. And that was done because trans people had a fundamental right to privacy, to not be outed about their past. There had been incidents, for example, marriages that trans people had entered and obviously same sex marriage wasn't permissible and marriages were being annulled. There were cases like the trans model April Ashley in the 1960's, her husband knew she was trans when he married her but it wasn't a valid marriage and then when they divorced he just had the marriage annulled, like revealed she was born male.

Things have moved on. It was a very progressive piece of legislation at its time. It's not so much now, very few trans people use it. What it requires is you have to have lived in your acquired gender for 2 years, which again is quite difficult to prove. So they go on stuff like when you changed your name, whether you're in work, to prove that you're living appropriately. Juliet Jakes writes about this. It was quite common, I think it's less so now, to see trans women working in charity shops, because if you've got a volunteer job, that would fulfil your requirements. You have to show payslips, or things like payslips, that show consistently use of mrs or miss or ms. So you have to show life evidence, thenyou also have to have two medical reports. And you have to answer about surgery.

And the trans inquiry launched in 2015 found evidence of trans girls who were 18 or whatever who transitioned at 16, who were being asked really inappropriate questions about whether or not they were planning to have sex reassignment surgery and they hadn't even had sex yet. So it's invasive, it's dehumanising.

It's been a principle of international law. For geeks who care, it's the Yogyakarta Principles, which is an international legal agreement on gender and sexuality, and then European Council resolution 2048 has set the international standard that trans people should be able to have a mechanism for declaring their own gender in a demedicalised process. That there is no panel that you send a pack of evidence to, as happens now, where they decide on the evidence whether or not you are who you say you are, or whether or not you're a man or a woman enough. And there's no form of appeal as well if they say no.

So the principle in international law - it's law in Argentina, Columbia, Malta, Denmark, Norway, it's going to come into force in Sweden, the ROI, and Portugal has just introduced it. That's a total population of 64,000,000 women and I don't believe that womanhood has been radically redefined as it's often alleged in those countries.

All it does is that it provides ... you swear a statutory declaration and then you file that and it allows you to change your documents more quickly. So I already changed my drivers licence on self declaration, I changed my passport, I have a female passport and drivers licence, it would just allow me to do that in a quicker way, because I've had to each time apply to different agencies.

When is the last time you got your birth certificate out? You're not even actually supposed to produce it ... When you say it's just a big fuss about nothing people can't believe that that's true and they think obviously I'm pushing an agenda. But really there are more radical beliefs that I have about gender and about transfeminism than whether we should be able to change our birth certificate. Changing our birth certificate won't affect anything. It literally gives me no more of a right to enter a women's space than I have already, because I don't produce a birth certificate. It's a bit like, the analogy I use is with gay marriage, gay men can get married in this country but can they actually walk down the street holding hands? In a lot of places they wouldn't feel safe to because of social norms, and actually what governs my entry to women's spaces are ... it's kind of a social fabric that determines I have to look a certain way, I have to pass a certain amount, I have to behave in a certain way, all of which I feel forced to adhere to. So the fact that I'm 5'7" is (? an assist) but my voice isn't. When trans women are aiming for feminity a lot of it is about safety and about allowing us access to those spaces.

So it's governed by that, it's not governed by the GRA, and what I'm starting to pick up is that even media is starting to pick up on that and they're starting to talk more about the EA and other provisions because they've realised they're flogging a dead horse with this.

There's a huge breadth of opinion amongst trans people as well (mumble mumble) middle class trans people (mumble mumble) gay politics. There's always beeen this tension between the idea of the bourgeois white middle class gay men pursuing a set of legal rights for himself, and where does that fit with the gay asylum seeker who is at risk of deportation? Where do the politics of those two men meet? Probably nowhere. And the same exists for trans people, so there are fundamentally different priorities, and there is a fundamentally legitimate criticism that when you pursue legal rights, in parliament, in the media, which is itself very white, very middle class, it is already an agenda that benefits some trans people quicker than others, and that's true.

I don't think it's the most urgent priority facing trans people, I think transphobic violence is, I do think ... the state detention of trans asylum seekers ... and healthcare [laughs], because healthcare is one of the biggest things in terms of mental health and therefore physical health, ultimately for trans people.

LangCleg · 18/05/2018 23:07

actually what governs my entry to women's spaces are ... it's kind of a social fabric that determines I have to look a certain way, I have to pass a certain amount, I have to behave in a certain way, all of which I feel forced to adhere to. So the fact that I'm 5'7" is (? an assist) but my voice isn't. When trans women are aiming for feminity a lot of it is about safety and about allowing us access to those spaces.

So it's governed by that, it's not governed by the GRA, and what I'm starting to pick up is that even media is starting to pick up on that and they're starting to talk more about the EA and other provisions because they've realised they're flogging a dead horse with this.

Well, Stephen Whittle has been doing a lot of briefing, hasn't he? And perhaps unwise of Shon to be quite so bold about the actual agenda here - dismantling the sex-based protections and spaces in EqA specifically because most trans people don't pass. One: don't give the game away unless you have to. Two: don't admit you know nobody really passes because then you invalidate the you've been peeing next to us for years canard ever again.

Picassospaintbrush · 18/05/2018 23:15

It's nice to know some people are putting some effort into actually understanding.

Picassospaintbrush · 18/05/2018 23:16

That was funny DJ Lippy, I saw it before it went.

flowersonthepiano · 18/05/2018 23:20

Yes Lang, that section stood out to me too. That's the feminist argument. It's changing social norms so that it becomes acceptable to see a man who doesn't pass in female spaces. So, any man can come in to female spaces. This gets shouted down with cries of 'transwomen are not a danger to women', but SF understands the argument very well. SF knows it is the whole point

Ereshkigal · 18/05/2018 23:24

Things have moved on. It was a very progressive piece of legislation at its time. It's not so much now, very few trans people use it.

Well let's not have all this pointless legislation cluttering up the statute books then.