Repeal the 8th - have we talked about Ireland's 'abortion war?'

[DorothyGarrod]

Nine women A DAY travel to the UK a day to access an abortion. I am vehemently pro-choice and I'm really hoping the law is changed as a result of the referendum in Ireland later this month. Even women who have been raped are not allowed abortions in Ireland!

I haven't seen much discussion of this on here, but perhaps I missed it when I was writing to my MP about changes to the GRC but I found this Standard Issue podcast which explained the issue to me and it is well worth a listen:

Part One: www.acast.com/standardissuespodcast/simep109doc1-part1-repealingtheeighth?autoplay

Part Two: www.acast.com/standardissuespodcast/simep110doc1part2-repealingthe8th

I'm scared to feel hopeful about the outcome of a referendum though...

As we know, lots of women have travelled to the UK from Ireland to have an abortion. I'm interested in why they are not still considered to have committed a crime. Is it simply because it's not illegal in the UK, therefore they are not considered to have committed a crime in Ireland?

Because the X Case referendum in 1992 was explicitly about the right to travel in pregnancy. The govt were trying to prevent a suicidal 14 year old rape victim from travelling to England for an abortion. The result of the referendum enshrined the right to travel in pregnancy in the Irish constitution. The same referendum also enshrined the right to access information about abortion in other jurisdiction, and rejected an attempt to exclude suicide as a risk to the life (as distinct from the health) of the pregnant woman.

Good article on the X case 3menmakeatiger.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/20-years-since-x-case-irelands-eternal.html

X post Quarks

At the time there was also a big push to allow risk of suicide of the mother as grounds for an abortion, this wasn’t successful

but you’re not quite right about the suicide issue. The proposal to exclude suicide as a risk to life of the pregnant woman was rejected by the Irish people in 1992, and rejected again in 2002.

I often read MRAs on here and twitter demanding to know what us feminists are doing for oppressed women in Muslim countries. My own answer is nothing, the same as I'm doing about Catholic countries.

I'm an atheist. It's not within my powers to override the faith based beliefs of others.

I find the Irish abortion issue utterly bizarre and nonsensical, but if the majority want it that way then it's a cultural issue that may take many more decades to change.

I can only hope the yes vote prevails. I couldn't live in Ireland or pay taxes to a system that hates me for being born female.

Quarks - many thanks for that explanation. I remember that case, and the huge outcry at the time. I didn't realise that they'd then passed a law allowing women to travel out of the country for abortion. Interesting compromise.

And thanks to DrMantis too - only just saw that you'd answered too.

Morris: "I often read MRAs on here and twitter demanding to know what us feminists are doing for oppressed women in Muslim countries."

And these people are utter hypocrites, because I can 100% guarantee that these are the same people who, when you say you're donating money to Oxfam or MSF, will ask why you don't donate money to all the deserving causes in this country. Do these MRAs campaign for the rights of oppressed people in other countries? Do they f*.

www.thejournal.ie/readme/vincent-brown-eighth-amendment-yes-vote-4026621-May2018/

Thought this was a good article. Watching with interest and hope in Northern Ireland.

Absolutely hackmum. They want women to fix the entire worlds problems while they sit on their arse passing commentary. They don't give a shit about Muslim or Catholic women, they just want to shut us all up.

My namesake Morris Zapp in the David Lodge campus novels came to feel deep sympathy with a young woman travelling to London from Ireland for an abortion. David Lodge was brought up a Catholic but has developed a more objective view in adulthood.

Nobody has to renounce their faith but ffs can't we modernise. Not my business anyway, it's their culture not mine.

There's a big thread on this as well in AIBU. Yes is still ahead in the Polls but I'm worried about the undecideds, there's still alot of them.

Link to the other thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3218622-repeal-the-8th

LassWithADelicateAir, you assert that no other situation in which a person's organs are used to enable another person to live are comparable to pregnancy.

However, you forgot to say how they differ.

Situation A: person's body essential to survival of another.
Situation B: person's body essential to survival of another.

And how are those totally different?

Arguments that one is arranged by nature don't work. Plenty of things are natural, dying of cancer or Ebola for instance, but we use all the technology available to interfere with them. The argument from nature is applied only to pregnancy.

The argument from nature is applied only to pregnancy

Yes because it is unique to pregnancy. All of the other examples involve the application of an external moral or ethical code or medical intervention. Pregnancy and a successful outcome are down to nature. It is totally different to the situations you have listed. There is only one way of growing a baby.

I have made my mind up I am pro choice to the extent as set out in my earlier post but I don't find your arguments at all convincing.

AssassinatedBeauty, to answer your question about "health risk", I'm not sure that people (in general) see pregnancy as being risky any more.

I personally am against allowing abortion in the case of suicide ideation, rape or any other very restricted system, simply because I don't want to see women, and especially teenage girls, have to prove they "need" an abortion. The original suggestion of abortion in cases of suicide risk had the suggestion of girls having to appear in front of a panel of doctors who would decide; similarly for rape, the girl would have had to declare in front of experts she had been raped. Neither are provable, and both are open to abuse (in that girls could be forced to say they were suicidal, or had been raped, in order to get an abortion).

I'm using "girl" here because if we are honest about it most older women who need an abortion will travel for one; the people being prevented here are the young, the poor, the uneducated, the unsupported.

I think the current suggested "on demand to 12 weeks" is the best we can hope for at the moment.

But listening to the person in charge of the Red Sea polls, and how they are trying to word the questions different ways to get an accurate result, is very upsetting. They have come to the conclusion that people don't answer honestly in opinion polls, that people who are intending to vote no won't admit it. So, in their opinion, "undecided" means "no" - which has always been my fear.

The most recent polls have the yes side at 52 to 56%. Every one of those people will need to turn out and vote, because it's likely the 27%ish No's will be joined by the 20%ish Don't Know's - and they will be brought to the polling booths by the busload.

The no campaign (judging by the posters, the campaigners, the numbers on the streets and the willingness to transport older people around on Friday) seem to have unlimited resources.

In Ireland there is still the niggling feeling among many that abortion is wrong - I'm worried that many will panic at the last minute and not vote, or decide at the last minute that they can't bring themselves to do so and it will be lost

It's 35 years since I first voted on this; if we lose this time, I'm not sure we'll see another referendum in my lifetime.

I’m just hoping Maryz that there are also some people who say they are going to vote no as they believe that is the acceptable answer will actually vote yes in the privacy of the booth.
I know that abortion is generally seen as wrong in Ireland. Pretty much all of my friends who are liberal and voting Yes would not believe in abortion on demand to term. However, I also think that nearly every woman even if they are pro life will have had a negative experience regarding how the current abortion laws are applied in Ireland. I’m really hoping that there will be some shy yes voters on Friday.

Very disappointed to see an ad on Mumsnet just now telling me to vote No.

Canvassing again last night and getting the impression that some of the undecideds won't vote, rather than leaning to No.
We are all agreed that you just can't predict how people will vote based on age, sex etc. I've been surprised every time I've gone out.

A lot of people are just fed up with the whole thing and I can't say I blame them. Last canvas tonight and I'm relieved in one way, but I know if it doesn't go our way I'll be questioning whether there was anything else I could have done.

Very disappointed to see an ad on Mumsnet just now telling me to vote No.

WHAT???!!!??? I am not standing for that.

@MNHQ what the fresh hell? You’re allowing political ads from the anti-choice campaign???? I hope that 1. This is an admin mistake with advertising software 2. You immediately retract and apologise and 3. Make a donation larger than the revenue you’ve received from these ads to the Yes campaign immediately.

MorrisZapp: I''m a fan of those David Lodge novels. I'd always wondered why you chose that user name, as Morris Zapp was a Jane Austen specialist, and I remember you saying once that you couldn't stand Jane Austen. So thank you for solving that particular mystery for me.

TheVeryThing please don’t be so hard on yourself, you are out there on the front line, canvassing incredibly hard work physically and mentally and you are only human. I hope you have planned yourself a relaxing weekend for after the vote whichever way it goes.

I’ve reported that post about the anti-choice ad, hopefully MNHQ will come on and explain what the hell happened there. That is outrageous.

Total digression (sorry), but Morris, hackmum, wasn't the point in the novel that Morris was pretty much indifferent to Jane Austen, he just saw a fertile academic field offering possibilities for publication which he could cynically exploit?

Thank you Cwenthryth, you're very kind.

Hi Cwenthryth

Can you possibly send us a screenshot of this ad so we can block it please, we do not explicitly allow political ads but sometimes the advertisers categorize themselves as something else which is how they get through from time to time.
A screenshot of the ad or click URL would be amazing so we can zap it.

You’ll need to ask @TheVeryThing it was her targetted advertising

Sorry, i didn't think to take a screenshot of the ad. It had a pink background & I think a picture of a baby - looked quite like something you would expect to see on a parenting site until I read the content.