Repeal the 8th - have we talked about Ireland's 'abortion war?'

[DorothyGarrod]

Nine women A DAY travel to the UK a day to access an abortion. I am vehemently pro-choice and I'm really hoping the law is changed as a result of the referendum in Ireland later this month. Even women who have been raped are not allowed abortions in Ireland!

I haven't seen much discussion of this on here, but perhaps I missed it when I was writing to my MP about changes to the GRC but I found this Standard Issue podcast which explained the issue to me and it is well worth a listen:

Part One: www.acast.com/standardissuespodcast/simep109doc1-part1-repealingtheeighth?autoplay

Part Two: www.acast.com/standardissuespodcast/simep110doc1part2-repealingthe8th

I'm scared to feel hopeful about the outcome of a referendum though...

Ah, thanks Anna. IIRC one of the reasons why the UK legalised abortion (in specific circumstances) in 1968 is that increasingly women who had had consensual sex were claiming they had been raped in order to get an abortion.

(Lass - I agree it's an inconsistent approach, but from a PR point of view many people who oppose abortion on demand seem to accept it in cases of rape and incest.)

Lots of no groups are against terminations even in cases of rape.
Lots of misinformation on posters about late term abortions and dubious statistics ( 1 in 5 of babies in the UK are aborted, 97% of babies aborted are healthy, ....).
Recently there has been an upsurge in the more religious based posters ( some with mother Theresa, some with photos of infants with though shall not kill, some with images of foetus with I am your grandchild...)

Savita

Really, really hoping there are enough yes voters. This situation is untenable for women and it is so hypocritical when everyones knows that making abortions illegal does not stop abortions from happening.
How many more women need to die, get injured by self aborting or by unsafe abortion methods, get into debt to travel, have to travel alone for an abortion or with support, and have to suffer the indignity of fear and stress around a pregnancy (or just the possibility of a pregnancy) that they don’t want to or can’t carry to term?

qazxc I don't know about the 97% statistic, but they discussed the 1 in 5 stat on More or Less recently. It's...kind of accurate. But not very precise.

Here's the iPlayer link: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b1tmb2

But I think it went something like this: based on all the pregnancies the NHS know about, 1 in 5 ends in abortion, and the remaining 4 end either in a live baby (most of the time) miscarriage or stillbirth.

Of course it doesn't take into account all the pregnancies which end in miscarriage very early and for which the woman receives no medical treatment, or miscarriages which occur without the woman knowing about it, but it's not completely plucked from thin air.

There were 190,406 abortions carried out in England and Wales in 2016 , 696, 271 live births and 3112 still births.

@qazxc the 1 in 5 i think is actually a 1:5 ratio of abortions to live births in England and Whales excluding Irish women who travel, the late term abortion on the posters is saying an abortion can happen up to 6 months- the proposed legislation is saying that abortions in the case of fatal fetal abnormality can happen here or early inductions can happen if a mother life is at risk. The no campaign is playing an absolute blinder in this campaign- their posters are extremely compelling and although are misleading that are not factually inaccurate. I feel the yes campaign have really underestimated them. Especially when a lot of people are pro choice but anti abortion so not as quick to post their opinions on Facebook or wear badges. And that I feel will be the downfall which is so frustrating as I feel that all the innovation of the repeal campaign happened very early which is what started the referendum n the first place

*Wales. Where is this magical land called Whales?

There was a thing on the news the other night about how money is pouring into various social media & campaign groups from USA "pro life" and they are so worried about the vote being influenced by people who really have nothing to do with it that they have had to take steps but I forget what they were.

I don't hold out much hope, the world is going backwards, women's rights are under attack all over the place, religion is getting far stronger again (of all types) and generally I feel pessimistic, but I hope I am wrong.

I just find it baffling how so many people simply do not care about women, which is what it boils down to, although pro lifers don't seem to see it that way, they don't see the link between their views and women and girls having a fucking awful time. Some of them of course do see the link and enjoy the idea of women being punished, generally.

I first learned about these https://www.asn.org.uk on MN, am really hoping some of the reasons for their existence may be about to disappear.

The bookies' odds on yes are 1/4 to 3/10 with the odds shortening.

I can't imagine placing a bet on this. It really isn't the same as the Scottish or Brexit referendum. The bookies were spot on in the Scottish referendum, closing betting at the same sort of odds. They called Brexit wrong.

It is so sad to see the decline in women's rights all over the world happening right in front of our eyes. And I am so shocked to hear women who are so anti-choice - how do women grow up believing other women should have fewer rights than men? And how does society applaud them?

And not just anti-choice women, women who think women who have been raped when drunk "put themselves in that position" ; women who believe women should cover their face in the name of modesty; women who abort baby girls (not women who are forced to in very poor countries, but women who live in the UK, are married to successful men and still abort baby girls to ensure a male heir; it goes on and on and on.... when will women realise that we all need to support each other and that our equality has not been achieved but we need to gain equality.

And I am so shocked to hear women who are so anti-choice - how do women grow up believing other women should have fewer rights than men?

As someone who is pro choice I am not however convinced by the line of argument that any one who is anti-abortion thinks women should have fewer rights than men.

This presumably refers back to the "bodily autonomy argument" ? If so , then an anti- abortion stance would be that it is irrelevant in the case of abortion.

The anti-abortion stance is predicated on the unique biological fact that a pregnant woman is responsibile for another life.

This for example is the argument Ben Shapiro uses. To say someone like him believes women should have fewer rights than men is patently nonsense.

The hurdle pro- choice has is that it is almost impossible to shift the mindset that being pregnant is a unique situation with responsibility for the growing embryo. In most cases, if left in utero the embryo will grow to be another human. I don't think there is any scope for compromise between these view points.

I’ve seen two people wearing “REPEAL” jumpers in the past few days. One on a bloke in the street who walked past me earlier and I made a point of saying “nice jumper” . Yay for allies.

But probably worn by people who don’t have a vote, in London, so influencing people who probably don’t have a vote either. All feels a little futile from the sidelines.

www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/shop/Repeal-jumper-p102774380

They’ve sold out of jumpers but that’s great that you’re seeing them around! I don’t agree that visible pro choice support is futile at a generalised level even if they don’t personally have a vote as individuals it sends a message to voters who can act on this.

I have seen a ton of jumpers in various colours in recent days on my commute (city centre Dublin) as well as various badges etc. I've only once encountered no campaigners, outside a dart station weeks ago.

How does it send a message to voters in Ireland if they’re being worn in the UK, though?

I’m not saying it’s pointless, btw, just frustrating.

People committed enough to be investing in and wearing pro choice slogans are likely to be also active on social media and talking to people about this. It all helps!

I suppose it raises awareness of the issues and perhaps encourages Irish people resident in the U.K. (many) to consider coming back for the vote if they can.

I do take the point about action that can be taken by UK people behind raising awareness about the Irish vote and its issues and donating to Irish women’s group’s campaigning for repeal.
There are pro choice actions they can take that would be relevant to UK women.

Hopefully there’s an EXTEND tshirt advocating for the extension of 1967 Abortion Act to cover Northern Ireland.. something pro choice that UK voters can write to their MP to advocate for. And there is the current sticky from MN about Sajid Javid and acting to set up buffer zones to stop anti choice people harassing women accessing abortion information, treatment and emotional support in Britain. Which would include Irish (and Northern Irish) women who have been forced to travel to Britain to access an abortion.

Just seen this heartbreaking letter shared on Twitter

That is heartbreaking Cwenthryth

I had a friend whose baby had anomalies that meant it would not have survived the pregnancy and she had an abortion in London. She had to have the remains posted back to her Ireland afterwards. The inhumanity of the system is appalling.

Quarks that is so sad but better than many stories here in Ireland where the remains have to stay in the UK and the mother can not even have a funeral or memorial for their loss.

The no posters here are scarey and so many of them we had a leaflet through the door the other day and some of the points were plucked from thin air. I will try and dig it out for pics.

One of the no sides arguments is that downs cleansing it part of early abortion. Here in ireland you can only test privately. They think repealing the 8th will lead to downs beig eliminated down the line and there is a need to protect downs pregnancies.

Not sure it is going to be repealed. I'm so saddened by this as have had personal experience. The most traumatic, inhumane and cruel experience of my life.

Was heartened in work to hear younger people openly speak about abortion and that they are voting yes.

Then another colleague who is also voting yes then started to say that girls/women need to stop dressing so provocatively and need to reign it in if we are to be taken seriously!!! Again as women we can have so much internalized shite going on towards our own sex. Women seem to be blamed for everything. We are the temptresses and the poor men just can't help themselves.