Repeal the 8th - have we talked about Ireland's 'abortion war?'

[DorothyGarrod]

Nine women A DAY travel to the UK a day to access an abortion. I am vehemently pro-choice and I'm really hoping the law is changed as a result of the referendum in Ireland later this month. Even women who have been raped are not allowed abortions in Ireland!

I haven't seen much discussion of this on here, but perhaps I missed it when I was writing to my MP about changes to the GRC but I found this Standard Issue podcast which explained the issue to me and it is well worth a listen:

Part One: www.acast.com/standardissuespodcast/simep109doc1-part1-repealingtheeighth?autoplay

Part Two: www.acast.com/standardissuespodcast/simep110doc1part2-repealingthe8th

I'm scared to feel hopeful about the outcome of a referendum though...

DrMantis, I know that the promise has theoretically been given, but I think there is evidence from other countries showing that it is (no matter what law says) in reality hard to conscientiously object to certain medical treatments as a doctor or nurse. As a medical/nursing student I'm not sure whether you can, in the UK for example, refuse to be involved in an abortion, or refuse to take on a placement that includes performing abortions.

I expect you can't, and indeed in most cases of medical treatments I would wary of giving staff an opt out. After all, if you are a doctor/nurse you can't just refuse to treat a patient if you don't agree with their views, or you don't agree with the medical guidelines of where you work - but I do think there is a valid concern when it comes to abortion in a country where traditionally it has been considered to be so morally wrong.

I may not agree with this line of argument, but I accept that many do, and rather than trying to bludgeon and force people into thinking it's not a concern, I'd much prefer taking the line of "I recognise you are worried about this, this is how we are going to minimise that concern", if that makes sense?

MrsHathaway, I've been reading stories like that all my adult life . Unfortunately to those who are avidly anti-abortion-under-any-circumstances-ever, the "sadness" and "distress" of a woman is irrelevant when put against the "death" of a "baby" - it's an argument that, with many people, will never be won.

DrMantis, I know that the promise has theoretically been given, but I think there is evidence from other countries showing that it is (no matter what law says) in reality hard to conscientiously object to certain medical treatments as a doctor or nurse.

Actually, there’s a significant recent study which shows precisely the opposite, based on cases from England, Portugal, Norway and Italy link here.

Maryz you're not wrong. But I'm heartened by the occasional comment on those posts saying "I didn't realise the 8th meant that, I'm rethinking" because these outlying cases do highlight the absurdity of the situation.

And you'd think that bleeding for a month would be considered important.

Thanks for the link, DrMantis, that's really interesting.

Again, I'm not saying I agree with all the "no" side concerns; obviously a lot of stuff quoted is a crock of shite, but for the sake of the undecided middle I think reassurance is more important than dismissal of concerns, if you see what I mean.

Of course Maryz

Red C poll this morning was encouraging

I think conscientious objection may be a concern for some medical professionals but I don’t think it’s an issue for the majority of voters and I certainly haven’t had anyone raise it on the doorstep or in the street.
The Yes side is predominantly a grassroots movement so not in a position to provide reassurances of that nature.
Personally, I don’t think people should be forced to perform abortions if they don’t want to but they should not be permitted to opt out of providing appropriate medical treatment to pregnant women.

Fingers crossed it does get changed, but just incase, and for the continuing position in NI, I have been supporting https://www.asn.org.ukk* since first reading about them on MN,

A cause that is very close to my heart.

Given the strength of feeling by the gps on that show possibly if you get a yes finding enough medical staff who will assist might be problematic.

Re opt outs the Scottish courts held 2 Carholic midwives could opt out of doing anything themselves but they could not opt out of supervision of those who did.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-30514054

Don't be fooled by what you saw on that programme, there are roughly 1300 doctors signed up to the Yes campaign, and around 200 on the No side.
It could be a problem in rural areas where there is a shortage of GPs but I don't think it will be a nationwide problem.

That's good to know.

www.thesun.ie/news/2597803/more-than-1-5k-irish-doctors-pin-support-for-yes-side-ahead-of-eighth-amendment-referendum/

I think Dr. Murphy was on that programme. It was rather biased then to have 4 no doctors out of the 6 in the audience who spoke.

bump

Four days to the vote.

Bit random but I'm watching Cold Feet.
Have never seen it before so I'm a bit like one of those millenials watching Friends on Netflix.

Has anyone seen it?
I was shocked by the abortion storyline.
Her friend was so unsupportive when she first mentioned it.
And it just gets worse from there

I'm just wondering how many 'shy' anti choice people are out there judging women exercising bodily autonomy

I started a thread because I wanted to raise abortion up the Mumsnet agenda. I shared my abortion story. If anybody else feels brave enough

We don't talk about this because of shame. We need to talk about this. It's important...

Irish sisters How can you still be fighting for your rights?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3255464-My-abortion-story-and-why-we-need-Repeal-the-8th

I am feeling very nervous about Friday (and I'm not even in Ireland). I'll be very upset if its a No.

The latest poll show that it’s really close. It’s hard and sad to believe that despite the huge positive, successful campaign for gay marriage that a woman’s right to make a choice about her reproductive health doesn’t seem to be valued in the same way.

As an Irish person, I do feel that Ireland isn’t as progressive as it thinks it is. I think there is hypocrisy around people who like to see themselves as egalitarian but who in reality are apologists for the awful treatment of women.

I find a huge amount of Irish lefty dude bros who think they are really enlightened but actually hold pretty repugnant views on women and who I really wouldn’t be surprised would vote no despite their woke credentials.

The polling numbers are reminiscent of the pre Brexit polls...

www.thejournal.ie/abortion-poll-red-c-sunday-business-post-4023304-May2018/

I’m hopeful but I’m very worried about this vote

It’s hard and sad to believe that despite the huge positive, successful campaign for gay marriage that a woman’s right to make a choice about her reproductive health doesn’t seem to be valued in the same way.

DH commented on this very thing tonight when I told him that the polls weren't looking so good, he said "how can they [the religious hard-liners and elder generation] be enlightened enough to have enough people voting for gay marriage to get through, but not this?"

All I could think was, this only benefits women, and that's probably what it comes down to. Lots of men like having women subjugated.

All I could think was, this only benefits women, and that's probably what it comes down to. Lots of men like having women subjugated

I think that is unfair and a bit simplistic. I believe many people , men and women, are anti-abortion from a genuine belief that it is killing a child and that if there is no health risk then there is always the option of adoption. You will not shift these people.

Bear in mind that in UK opinion polls women exceed men by quite some margin for wanting more restrictions.

I think there are 4 camps
(1) those who believe in an absolute right to abort to term;
(2) those who think abortion is killing a baby at any stage;
(3) those who can't ally with either of those camps but accept abortion, with limits such as the UK has, as a pragmatic lesser of 2 bad things option; and
(4) your class of subjugators of women.

In mainland UK I think camp 3 will have by far the largest membership, far more than any of the others. It is where I put myself.

Why do those people who allow for the situation of "health risk" not realise that there's always a risk to women's health from continuing a pregnancy and going through a birth? It's only acceptable to them if there's a very high chance of harm to the woman, normal pregnancy risks are not sufficient it seems.

Even a low risk trouble free pregnancy can result in life threatening situations.

LassWiADelicateAir Thu 17-May-18 13:34:58, commenting that pregnancy comes with a special responsibility for another life.

As others have already said, no, not now, not with medical technology. When you don't donate your spare kidney / liver lobe / lung to a tissue-matched person dying for lack of it, you have committed exactly the same deprivation of life of someone who depends on your tissues.

When you don't donate blood regularly, when you don't donate bone marrow regularly, same thing.

If saving another life is the only priority, there would have to be forcible tissue-typing laws, and then forcible donations when those tissues are needed to save a life. That is exactly analogous to forced pregnancy.

The only difference is forced organ donation could happen to everyone. Pregnancy can happen only to women.

And only pregnancy is put in a class by itself as an excuse to take away bodily autonomy. Interesting, wouldn't you say?

Plus there's a currently theoretical wrinkle to forced pregnancy. If taking away bodily autonomy is accepted, then how far it's taken depends only on who has power.

Actually, not so theoretical. In recent memory, China was forcing abortions because the people in power thought that was a good idea.

Forced organ donation is theoretical at this point, but there's nothing stopping it if bodily autonomy is not an inalienable right.

I've seen all the arguments you put many times before . None of the situations you posit are the same as a preganancy. You say And only pregnancy is put in a class by itself as an excuse to take away bodily autonomy. Interesting, wouldn't you say?Pregnancy. The anti- abortionist would say " it is because it is unique". I'm pro-choice and I don't agree your analogies are true.

I support the mainland UK position on abortion, which despite the 2 doctor rule is one of the most liberal in the world . I come to that view because not to do so would cause greater harm than supporting it does.

Just wondering if someone could clarify a legal point for me.

As we know, lots of women have travelled to the UK from Ireland to have an abortion. I'm interested in why they are not still considered to have committed a crime. Is it simply because it's not illegal in the UK, therefore they are not considered to have committed a crime in Ireland?

Or is it because the law refers specifically to the person carrying out the abortion, so if a woman in Ireland had an abortion carried out by a doctor, the doctor would be prosecuted but not the woman?

Just trying to get my head around the question of doing something that's legal in one country but not another - I think we've discussed on other threads that if, for example, you took your child to have FGM performed in a country where it was legal, you'd still be deemed to have broken the law in England and Wales.

I have an Irish friend who is ALL OVER this. She is relentlessly campaigning to repeal it to anyone who will listen. If I was in Ireland I'd be doing the same.

Yet when I spoke about the GG thing, she basically said "pfft, doesn't affect me, I've never seen it, you are just making a fuss over nothing".

She's said quite openly that she's never had a termination, but is fighting to support those that do need one; so I find her hypocrisy somewhat galling.

Hi HackMum

In the early 90s a 14 year old girl was raped by a family friend (who it transpired had been sexually abusing her for years) and became pregnant. She was suicidal as didn't want to have the baby.

Her family informed the police that they would go to the UK to have the abortion and would get a paternity test done to prove the rapist was the father.
The police asked the director of public prosecutions whether this would be admissible in court.
When the family were in London about to have the abortion done, the Irish courts got an injunction to stop the girl and family from leaving Ireland.
After more discussion, the judge decided that the girl had to be restrained from leaving the country for 9 months - he said that despite the girl being suicidal the rights of the baby trumped that of the girl (obviously framed in a more legal way)
Lawyers for the girl challenged this and the appeal at the Supreme Court over ruled the judge from the High court and said she should be allowed to travel.
The girl had a miscarriage after the ruling.

As a result of the case and the national outcry that followed a law was passed that allowed the freedom to travel outside the state for an abortion. At the time there was also a big push to allow risk of suicide of the mother as grounds for an abortion, this wasn’t successful