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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

541 replies

daimbars · 10/05/2018 18:15

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

OP posts:
Juells · 11/05/2018 10:15

Hmmmnnnn... I don't have the same visceral response to transmen. It wouldn't bother me at all to have transmen in toilets or mixed wards.

RatRolyPoly · 11/05/2018 10:26

Not talking about a long passed illness is not an act of deception.

So let me get this straight, you think that if you're trans and you make a friend, or get chatting to someone in a shop, or someone hires you to do the photocopying; that if you don't tell them you're trans that's an act of deception? And that that's a bad thing to do, is that right?

Just trying to get what you're saying straight in my head.

Because to me there is a lie by omission only when the omitted information would have otherwise been relevant.

In fact I'm pretty sure that's the sensible interpretarion. It isn't a bad thing to not tell all the people all the completely irrelevant things all the time. And that's the point isn't it, they want the right to not have to disclose that information when it is not relevant. You can see that can't you?

RealityHasALiberalBias · 11/05/2018 10:29

Rat
I'm wondering if when an organisation wants to use them they should be encouraged to state categorically that they are exempting "women" (whether you believe they are or not) on the grounds of their gender reassignment specifically.

Then any lobbying they would face that "transwomen are women" they could simply agree - transwomen are women - but we have a legitimate aim that can only be achieved by excluding women who have the protected characteristic of " gender reassignment".

Would that work, do you think? Or at least help?

Honestly, I really think you'd have to ask the TRA lobbyists this. I can't see how they would see this as different. It's the exclusion they appear to object to, not the terminology.

RatRolyPoly · 11/05/2018 10:37

It's the exclusion they appear to object to, not the terminology.

Anyone who objects to any exclusion at all right across the board objects to the Equality Act, and to me that's as extreme a fringe view as those wanting rid of the GRA.

So for yourself, would you personally consider dropping the "transwomen are or aren't women" question on the basis of what I've said?

You seemed to agree it doesn't really matter because we have the EA, but said it needed to be refuted because TRAs would lobby on that basis. Forgive me if I'm misrepresenting you; but seeing as we can see (I hope!) that those organisations could defend their stance without refuting that transwomen are women, do you think it's a question that would be better left unresolved so that the two sides can hold their own views in peace?

I really am trying to see how this all pans out so hoping to glean a little insight into people's personnel views; I hope that's coming across.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 11/05/2018 10:43

Because to me there is a lie by omission only when the omitted information would have otherwise been relevant.

Knowing someone's sex is relevant most of the time - people assert their boundaries differently with members of the opposite sex. If you don't disclose your sex, you are denying others that opportunity to set appropriate boundaries.

Juells · 11/05/2018 10:46

I really am trying to see how this all pans out so hoping to glean a little insight into people's personnel views; I hope that's coming across.

I'm sorry, I can't follow your arguments, it just seems so complicated that I don't see how you could get ordinary people like me to understand what you're talking about :(

Surely whatever is decided has to be understandable to those of us who aren't particularly brainy? How brainy are the men and women who gatekeep in swimming pools and fitting rooms in shops etc.? Probably around the same level as I am. You could explain your proposal five different ways and I still wouldn't know what you're talking about.

RatRolyPoly · 11/05/2018 10:53

Knowing someone's sex is relevant most of the time

I'm interested when you say "most" of the time; what do you mean? What about the examples I've given?

And when you say people "assert their boundaries", how does that compete with the recognised need to reduce unconscious bias which disproportionately disadvantages women, particularly in employment?

Many companies have blind CVs for just that reason, that if you know someone's sex you treat them differently, and we're not talking boundaries here we're talking prejudice. We're talking sexism.

So look, it benefits women too that our sex should only be disclosed when it is demonstrably relevant; that's why I'm interested to know what you mean by "most" of the time. Because it needs to be considered that except in the situations covered by the Equality Act (which few dispute are cases when sex matters), apart from those you have to balance out the desire of some women to know sex so that they can "set different boundaries" with the need of other women not to be disadvantaged by their different treatment by others.

It all hinges on what you mean by "most" really as to how far we disagree.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 11/05/2018 10:54

I see what you mean, Rat. Personally I don't believe transwomen are women, but I don't really care if other people want to believe it as long as they aren't trying to make everyone else believe it too.

So yes, I do agree with you in theory that your idea seems reasonable, and as long as the outcome was that same sex spaces could be protected I personally wouldn't have a problem with a bit of fudge over the wording. Others will disagree I'm sure.

My reservation, however, is that I don't think TRAs will share this view, or endorse this approach, based on their rhetoric up to now. So it's kind of academic.

RatRolyPoly · 11/05/2018 10:59

I'm sorry, I can't follow your arguments

Sorry! I get into this debate a lot and it's hard to pitch it right on an anonymous forum; I've been accused of being patronising in the past so I was keen not to repeat :)

I'm just wondering if simply you, as an individual, might consider refraining from the "are transwomen women?" debate on the grounds that it really doesn't matter.

You see to me it doesn't matter to changing rooms, toilets, any of that. So if we say transwomen ARE women, just for argument's sake, you can still tell a rape shelter employee they can refuse women who are trans (not that I necessarily agree with that), not because they're not women, but because of their gender reassignment.

Anyway, don't worry, I may yet be talking gobledigook :)

RatRolyPoly · 11/05/2018 11:02

(not that I necessarily agree with that)

I'm retracting this bit! I originally wrote "changing room attendant", hence I didn't necessarily agree, but changed it to rape centre worker so that I could delete those brackets!

litereally · 11/05/2018 11:10

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

I'm a radical feminist - I don't believe that gender is anything but social stereotypes and prejudices based on bullshit sex-roles. I believe that your body and biological sex is immutable. I believe that man or woman are just nouns, they should have no value judgement attached to them. Women AND men are only limited by the social construct of gender, and enshrining it in law is antithesis to what I believe. I am not a bio-essentialist. That said, the current law doesn't exist in that world, and I am not a lawyer or politician. I believe that enshrining gender stereotypes in law is wrong, but I know that this is a minority view. I am, however, entitled to it.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Yeah totally, I'm going to break into people's blood and suck all the hormones out of them, then stand by with my pointy black hat and cackle as they suffer. Don't be fucking stupid. Do I think that it should be harder to get hormones? Yes. But that comes into that I don't think that there is anything WRONG with being a man or a woman and have a man or woman's body and that we shouldn't be mutilating people for the same reason we don't tell people with eating disorders they ARE fat and disgusting. I do think that children should not be given hormones for non-medical reasons and think we should fight this idea that puberty should be a lovely, empowering experience where you blossom into a mature adult and are validated by it, and if you're not, you're going through the "wrong" puberty. Puberty was hell because my body was changing in ways that were often painful and uncomfortable - but also because society treated me like meat for having large breasts.

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

I think that women fought long and hard to get public toilets and to now say that its wrong for them to have them is ignorant of history and denialism of the real, visceral problem of male violence.

I work in prisons, and trans offenders should be housed in line with their sex in vulnerable people wings. The women's estate has enough problems without acting as a pressure valve for the male estate and moving dangerous male-bodied criminals into the women's estate moves the risk onto vulnerable women. Women should not be set on fire to keep transwomen warm, especially when those transwomen are Ian Huntley.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Where is the backlash against them? If you look at the replies on these kind of posts the people pushing back are exclusively radfems. If the trans community is so aghast they should clean their own house.

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

I am a lesbian, and when I came out a few years ago, one of the first things I read online was that I had to accept trans women and their lady penises as female and put them inside my body or I'm a bigot and "literally" killing them. This has only got louder over time. Dating as a lesbian in a large city is terrifying enough with the risk of getting gay-bashed without also risking turning up to a tinder date and finding a male person sitting opposite you and wondering if you reject them whether shit will go down.

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

I think that women's rights are so new, and they're always under attack. I think its easy to forget that women have only recently been able to participate in many sports, let alone been able to actually work as a professional sportswoman and make a living wage. That the ONLY thing that has increased the proportion of women in parliament is labour's all women shortlist and EVEN WITH THAT, its under 25%. I think that we are STILL punished financially for having children, that we aren't promoted enough, that we are raped and murdered because of our sex but it's not considered a hate crime. That there has never been a day without rape. That when women and girls do better at something it is devalued and considered oppressive to men. I think that these things are shocking and a national disgrace. I think we need to overhaul the whole fucking world and radical feminism is the only ideology that advocates this.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

Wearing dresses isn't female, having female friends doesn't make you a girl, playing with girly toys isn't female. Puberty itself is scary. I would work hard to help my child in any way possible, but I wouldn't LIE to them that they were a girl. I'm a radical feminist - I want my child to grow up as an empathetic, caring person who doesn't feel constrained by the gender box society puts them in. The solution isn't to construct more boxes, or make the boxes sturdier. It's to tear the boxes down.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 11/05/2018 11:13

It all hinges on what you mean by "most" really as to how far we disagree.

It all depends on power really.

Blind CVs are good. They prevent unconscious bias (except roles that are 'women only' should be for women only and therefore sex disclosed).

At the point of interview, when face to face, it would it probably be the time to disclose your sex to ask what accommodation they will make for 'transgender status'. If you get the job, your employer would be able to sensitively balance your needs with the other employees and put necessary systems in place.

In informal situations it is probably going to be a bit tedious, but at the point you realise someone has been deceived, for instance they are flirting with you or sharing themselves openly or being close with your personal space is also the time to disclose if you want the interaction to continue.

R0wantrees · 11/05/2018 11:13

Rat I agree entirely with both of your suggestions, particularly removing sex as a marker on things like passports. I mean it's going to be pretty useless on there anyway isn't it when gender stereotypes have finally been broken down and it stops being a useful sanity test when looking at the passport holder.

My thoughts are that with regards passports then sex indication matters more. Since their primary purpose is for international travel rather than id, I think there are a number of circumstances when the treatment of women / men would be different. Whilst I agree it is good that gender stereotypes are being broken down, this is happening differently throughout the the world.

There are other forms of id eg driving licences which can also be used for employment purposes where removing sex markers perhaps would be better changed.

RatRolyPoly · 11/05/2018 11:22

Yes, you're probably right R0wantrees.

Permission I don't think we disagree all that much then. Obviously in informal situations that's just normal social contract stuff isn't it, and even then you can't make people behave in the socially acceptable manner. But I don't think what you've said is unreasonable on that front.

In the interview situation however I'm still not sure someone's trans status is definitely relevant. I mean sure, if they need some special measures then they can disclose that if they want, but just like you don't have to disclose a disability they shouldn't have to.

And if the interviewer feels they need to know, perhaps for the sake of their other employees, then undoubtedly they've run that past the "proportionate means to a legitimate end" clause of the EA, and can ask. Because otherwise I'm pretty sure it's illegal under discrimination law, isn't it?

PermissionToSpeakSir · 11/05/2018 11:33

In the interview situation however I'm still not sure someone's trans status is definitely relevant. I mean sure, if they need some special measures then they can disclose that if they want, but just like you don't have to disclose a disability they shouldn't have to.

Having a disability doesn't affect other employees. Having someone pretending to be a member of the opposite sex does.

And if the interviewer feels they need to know, perhaps for the sake of their other employees, then undoubtedly they've run that past the "proportionate means to a legitimate end" clause of the EA, and can ask. Because otherwise I'm pretty sure it's illegal under discrimination law, isn't it?

If they didn't give the person the job because of their transgender status, well yes that would be discrimination.

If they are employed them without providing separate washing/changing facilities and other relevant measures for the privacy, etc of the other employees, then they are discriminating against them.

They need to balance everyone's needs, because sex is a protected characteristic.

Juells · 11/05/2018 11:39

@litereally

I believe that enshrining gender stereotypes in law is wrong, but I know that this is a minority view. I am, however, entitled to it.

I doubt it is a minority view It's just that most people don't even realise it's happening.

R0wantrees · 11/05/2018 13:03

Rat Yes, you're probably right R0wantrees.

The more I think about this the more sure I am. If as we both agree gender stereotypes become increasingly broken down in some societies faster than others, then being able to access sex-based treatment in other countries with very different perspectives of sex/gender seems incredibly important.

Ereshkigal · 11/05/2018 13:30

Then any lobbying they would face that "transwomen are women" they could simply agree - transwomen are women - but we have a legitimate aim that can only be achieved by excluding women who have the protected characteristic of " gender reassignment".

Would that work, do you think? Or at least help?

No. It's obvious why they are being denied access. And that is because they are male. Not because they are women who have had "gender reassignment". There is no logical basis for that. We're just pussyfooting around to save their feelings and it doesn't help women to pretend that males are women.

Ereshkigal · 11/05/2018 13:31

What I think would help everyone is to draw a line between sex and gender identity.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 11/05/2018 16:00

What I think would help everyone is to draw a line between sex and gender identity

YY. People should not be discriminated against because of their sex. People should not be discriminated against because of their gender identity (a strongly held belief system like religion).

However, as sex is material reality sex based exemptions must be properly upheld and strengthened where necessary. And all legislation and guidance needs to be gone through with a fine toothed comb and edited so that "sex" and "gender" are used correctly and consistently. And the fact that it is not possible to change sex should be recognised.

daimbars · 11/05/2018 18:34

What I think would help everyone is to draw a line between sex and gender identity.

In an ideal world this would be great but in practice there are a lot of grey areas like when someone has fully transitioned or intersex people.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 11/05/2018 18:39

I don't think it helps to conflate them. Intersex is not the same.

Ereshkigal · 11/05/2018 18:41

However, as sex is material reality sex based exemptions must be properly upheld and strengthened where necessary. And all legislation and guidance needs to be gone through with a fine toothed comb and edited so that "sex" and "gender" are used correctly and consistently. And the fact that it is not possible to change sex should be recognised.

Yes to all that.

catgirl1976 · 11/05/2018 18:41

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

I think it should be revised to make things easier for people who want to transition but self id is fraught with issues and consultation is needed.

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

No

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

I think if you retain a penis you should. If you don't then you shouldn't.

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

No

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

No

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

No. But they are still necessary.

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

I would affirm his choice clothes and friends and not make an issue out of that. I would tell him he was a boy and his body was perfect but that didn't mean he couldn't wear dresses or play with dolls. I would talk to him about why he feared puberty and attempt to help him and seek counselling and appropriate support if I thought it was needed.

CharlieParley · 11/05/2018 18:45

Please stop with the intersex people. They have asked repeatedly - that is intersex organisations worldwide have demanded - not to be brought into this debate. I don't understand why trans allies are constantly happy to disrespect intersex people in this way.

Their problem has nothing - nada -zilch - sweet FA - to do with gender

There aren't a lot of grey areas. There are grey areas for something like 0.001% of the British population (post-op transsexuals). That's a grey area so small as to be entirely irrelevant in practice. The kind of radical gender identity you are propagating is something the vast majority of the population has never heard of, doesn't possess and is extremely unlikely to agree with.

So that line between sex and gender identity needs to be drawn, should be drawn and can be drawn to protect women and girls in practice in this society we live in.

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