Questions from a liberal feminist to the rad fems

[daimbars]

Questions from a liberal feminist to radical feminists.

Inspired by this thread:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244342-Has-anyone-else-just-discovered-that-they-are-a-RadFem

I have a few questions for the rad fems. I do get the concerns with self ID and the discussions around that.

The questions I have are for those who have posted comments such as:

You can’t argue with biological fact / trans women are men / being trans is a mental illness

My questions are:

Are you saying the current Gender Recognition Act should be repealed?

If so, are you suggesting withdrawing hormones from those who have already transitioned?

Do you think a fully transitioned trans woman with a GRC to ‘prove’ she is a woman (eg Nadia from Big Brother) should use the men’s loos and be in a male prison / care home / hostel?

Do you think TRAs who say things on Twitter like ‘suck my ladydick’ and 'enjoy your erasure' are representative of transgender people as a whole?

Do you feel transgender people threaten your safety and well-being as a woman? If so what personal experiences (not what you have read on Mumsnet / Twitter / Reddit) have made you reach this conclusion?

Do you think current exceptions in the Equality Act (eg it is legal to exclude trans women from competitive spots and certain job roles such as rape crisis counselling) are sufficient to protect women? https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination

If your male child repeatedly told you they were female from the age of three, wore dresses, played with girls etc and were very distressed at the thought of male puberty, how would you help them?

My answers are no, no, no, no, no, yes. The last question I would struggle with the most but I would try to support my child to live the life they need to live as best I could. I guess this makes me a lib fem.

DJLippy if a trans woman was attacked or raped I hope as a society we would allow her to access support in a domestic violence or rape crisis hostel rather than dismissing her as a dangerous male.

If a predatory TRA decided to self ID as female to deliberately access a woman's safe space then that is a different scenario.

Using discretion and assessing on a case by case basis, as per the current law, is my suggestion.

As I said in my OP I do get the concerns with self ID. Acknowledging that self ID is a problem is very different to saying anyone who is trans should automatically be banned from female safe spaces.

Rat

Women on average are weaker, slower and smaller than men. Of course there will be outliers but they are the exceptions.
That’s biological differences due to sex. There’s a physical power imbalance.

Don’t you ever feel threatened walking down a street at night with a stranger behind you? Or getting on a night bus alone?

What if you woke up in a different body?

In this scenario I am the Doctor and I would go and have a swim in the Tardis swimming pool.

And on empathy, realizing intellectually that other women are worried about things you're not worried about after they've told you so a billion times is not empathy. If you gave any indication of actually having an emotional response to that other than frustration that other women are getting in the way of your political theory by not being as awesome as you think you are then maybe.

Women on average are weaker, slower and smaller than men.

And I don't disagree for a second that that physical power imbalance means that there are legitimate scenarios where proportionate segregation is wonderful for women - I've never proposed a view without being pro reasonable segregation - never.

But the argument is in the details. It's on the nuance and how I think many posters take it too far.

Even if I did feel vulnerable walking home at night, I wouldn't support separate streets for women; man streets and lady streets; because although undoubtedly women would be very, very safe with this arrangement, their right to be protected in the world has gone too far to obliterate our right to be a part of it.

That’s a ridiculous extrapolation Rat

I just hit Poe with Rat. Honestly can't tell if they're serious or not.

That’s a ridiculous extrapolation Rat

You understand it's an over-extrapolation to make a point, don't you?

The point being that the argument I frequently have is with how far certain posters suggest we go to protect women, not that they suggest we do it at all (because obviously I agree we should do it).

@daimbars

Juells a lot of people are invested in this issue. We all want a world that is safe and tolerant for our kids to grow up in.

But it makes absolutely no sense for someone to call themselves a feminist, and to have absolutely zero interest in or understanding of the concerns of women. You don't give a shit about us. You're interested only in fighting for the right for men to invade our spaces, under the guise that they're vulnerable. Let them fight for their own spaces, just like women had to. You're not a feminist, and it's insulting to women to pretend that you are.

@RatRolyPoly

You say all the right words, in the right order, and they all sound logical. But almost every post of yours demonstrates that you have no empathy. You know what the word means, that's all.

Acknowledging that self ID is a problem is very different to saying anyone who is trans should automatically be banned from female safe spaces.

As far as I know nobody has ever been stopped from providing a service for women and transwomen.

The problem is that without the acknowledgement that there is a difference between women and transwomen, it’s not possible to differentiate on the basis of sex.

This is a problem because women need specific services and accommodations because of their sex, not their identity.

If you gave any indication of actually having an emotional response to that other than frustration that other women are getting in the way of your political theory by not being as awesome as you think you are

Good description!

f a trans woman was attacked or raped I hope as a society we would allow her to access support in a domestic violence or rape crisis hostel rather than dismissing her as a dangerous male.

Not a female only one, no. Don't pretend that anyone reasonable thinks the same as you. They don't.

*Everyone reasonable

Honestly if DH responded to women's concerns with as little empathy as Rat does I'd divorce him.

And actually this is the feminist attitude that is most suited to my life

Well yes, it is evident that you can only see through your eyes! You are allright Jack - fuck the rest of them.

But it makes absolutely no sense for someone to call themselves a feminist, and to have absolutely zero interest in or understanding of the concerns of women. You don't give a shit about us. You're interested only in fighting for the right for men to invade our spaces, under the guise that they're vulnerable. Let them fight for their own spaces, just like women had to.

This. I'm sorry that women and girls don't merit the same consideration and empathy that the male BFFs of our vibrant haired, woke OP are given by her, and expected of us.

But almost every post of yours demonstrates that you have no empathy.

You'll have to understand that yours is not the only interpretation of my posts that I've had fed back to me. Of course I appreciate yours, but you should be aware that i know it to not be definitive.

But again, thank you for the feedback.

Rat

Nobody takes their knickers off on the night bus. Nobody walks down a dark street with their knickers round their ankles.

It’s a ridiculous extrapolation and a demonstration of bad faith debate.

Many people have picked up on this Rat, it's hardly one person.

In this scenario I am the Doctor and I would go and have a swim in the Tardis swimming pool.

Thank you for this exactly the answer this ridiculous hypothetical question should get!

No Ereshkigal, but it is a certain kind of person with a certain kind of views.

Elle I genuinely don't know why you're taking about knickers, I guess our wires must have crossed somewhere along the line.

What if you woke up in a different body?

Less fun answer than merrymouse’s, but I’d seek urgent psychiatric help on the grounds that the only possible explanation for this would be that I was suffering a sudden-onset delusional disorder.

TERF you've taken that quote out of context and used it to express the exact opposite of the way in which it was originally used. That's either bad faith on your part, or poor comprehension.

Rat, I’m another of that certain kind of person you so sneerily dismiss. I share Eresh’s reading of your posts. You’re denying and minimising women’s experience so that you can push a particular libertarian agenda. Libertarianism has always suited men far better than women.

Oh I think she understands you perfectly, Rat.