"I feel like a woman"

[pearsapplesbananas]

I am a transgender woman. The following doesn't in any way pretend to be a universal account of all trans women's experiences and thoughts, just mine.

When I say "I feel like a woman" to somebody, what I mean is:

I wish I was born in a female body. I wish I had a female reproductive system, and that I could carry a child. Every time I look into the mirror, I want to smash my face against it. Every time I look at a "normal" family, my heart sinks, because I will likely never get to have that. Hormones make me feel less bad. Besides easing my physical dysphoria, they have also important psychological effects (like some women experience with their cycles). They are a tool that helps me deal with my… bad luck at birth.

But I'm slowly starting to empower myself. Coming out of this endless spiral of self-disgust and self-pity. I might be wrong but, from what I read, it seems like there is a discussion framed as a dichotomy: that giving me a decent chance to life is a direct attack on women's rights. Well, I wouldn't see how, and of course, I wouldn't want it to be.

As a consequence, both sides of the discussion attack each other. Often, with what I consider cruelty, inhumanity and viciousness, lacking the most basic empathy. It's as if we all left our humanity at home, for our families and loved ones, and were fighting as animals against each other.

I think both sides could benefit from working together, we have many things to teach one another and many fights in common. For example, better healthcare. I read a post on this forum, about the access to laser by women with PCOS. In all honesty, I don't think a single transgender woman would oppose this. In fact, it's something that I (and many others) would advocate for. Similarly, there are many other topics framed as dichotomies that would more likely be solved if they weren't.

The only people benefiting from all this is people who regard women and transgender people as lesser than.

giving me a decent chance to life is a direct attack on women's rights. Well, I wouldn't see how, and of course, I wouldn't want it to be.

But when the Stonewall definition of trans, for instance, comes down to "anyone who says they are", and thus women are expected to accept males in domestic violence shelters, communal changing rooms, affirmative action programmes, prisons, single-sex groups, just because the male says the right words - do you see why that is a direct attack on women's rights?

And that's not even going into the whole issue of lesbians....

Most of us used to have no problem with transsexuals using the women's toilets. But sadly those days are long gone & now we're faced with protests outside our meetings, women getting punched, threats of violence on social media and celebrations of misogynist violence by TRAs in San Francisco Library.

If you want to support women, then you'll be working with people like Miranda Yardley & Truscum. You'll be separating yourself from the TRAs, shouting "NOT IN MY NAME" and fighting for our right to retain our single-sex spaces.

How about it?

You can't "feel like a woman" anymore than I can feel like a cat because you have never been a woman and I have never been a cat. Maybe it's more accurate to say you don't feel like a man?

Taking some female hormones is not going to give you the feeling of having a cycle either because a cycle is more than just oestrogen at play.

I'm not familiar with a lot of the things you talk about but these two statements stand out to me.

OP - could you work on the trans lobby NOT issuing rape and death threats to anyone who states publicly that they support women's rights, and then once that is sorted, we can all talk?

Because currently, anyone who does - gets rape and death threats.

Weird that isn't it?

Welcome pearsapplesbanana and thank you for sharing your story. Do you know what I thought when I read this:

Every time I look at a "normal" family, my heart sinks, because I will likely never get to have that.

I know that feeling. That's what I thought. It's for different reasons in my circumstances but that longing I know. It's painful, that feeling, and it hurts even more when you have to accept it's simply not possible. Oh, you find a workaround, you rationalise, you count your blessings, but you always know it's not going to happen. Not really, not the way you dreamt of.

Anyway...

Got to disagree on this though: that giving me a decent chance to life is a direct attack on women's rights

If all you read is discussions on trans forums and listen to trans activists, then you might think that. But that is not the truth. The feminists here, and actually everyone I know IRL (including the homophobe who won't let their DCs partner of 20yrs come into the house) support transsexuals getting a decent chance to live their lives as they wish. That's true even for those who don't agree with gender-non-conformity because they understand that gender dysphoria is a distressing condition to have.

The problem is not you living life as a M2F transsexual, taking hormones etc. The problem is taking rights away from women and girls to accommodate people who unlike you do not suffer from gender dysphoria but expect society to validate their individual self-expression which is not an illness and give it special protected status as if it was an illness or some other vulnerability that needs to be protected thereby directly overriding the sex-based protection of women and girls.

So OP, to "feel" is to "wish" ?

I wish I had a reproductive system that didn’t cause me constant pain that ruins my sex life and fertility. I too want to smash my face into a mirror whenever I look into it. My hormones make me feel worse - I suffer with horrendous hormonal acne, mood swings and tiredness. My physical and psychological affects (including the horrendous ones from my cycles) of being a women only highlight my bad luck at birth.

But I'm starting to empower myself. I am realising I have the power to succeed as far as my male colleagues, if not further, despite working in the male dominated industry. Instead of simply feeling upset about being a member of the underclass gender I am now actively challenging and calling out inequality in my place of work.
Rather than caring about only what I “wish” I am joining the fight to equality.

Nothing of what you said defines feeling 'like a woman', just wanting to have things that women have. There is no one 'feeling like a woman' feeling. I'm sorry for your dysphoria but your post answers your title

Have you also shared those opening thoughts with the transgender activists? How have they taken the suggestions?

I think you'll find that feminists are the group who have been trying to meet half way, be compassionate, have empathy, consider all sides. Only to hear 'no debate' at the polite end of the scale and genuinely frightening threats to person, wellbeing, livelihood and reputation at the other. Forgive us for responding defensively, sarcastically and with some absolutism as we are finally learning that 'the other side' - as they have positioned themselves - have no interest in sharing common ground or respecting and considering natal women.

I hadn't realised how very female-socialised I was in some ways (being very unfeminine in most ways) until I started to ask myself why I was so taken aback at the blunt lack-of-niceness from women when I'd simply expect it from a good many men.

YY Lancelottie so much this ^^

Gosh, this thread went a little pear-shaped, didn't it pear ? Not exactly how you thought it would turn out. Perhaps because there is not really such a thing as 'feeling like a woman', other than how the rest of the world treats you. If you think getting surgeries to look like a woman, to 'pass' like a woman, will solve your woes - think again. You will just inherit a whole new bunch of woes IF you 'pass' as a woman. That is because, being a woman in a misogynist society, sucks bigtime. Hence, feminism (the real kind).

If I have read you correctly, and you are not lying to string us along, then I gather you are transsexual. That is fine, if you want to sleep with men - but this does not make you a woman - it makes you a homosexual male with internalised homophobia. Again, society is still fairly homophobic, but not as homophobic as it is misogynistic. So you would have a far better time of it just being a male, that sleeps with other males.

Wanting all the babies, still does not make you a woman either. Plenty of women actually do not. Some realise this early on, others after they have had them (and wish they had not). Just because we can, does not mean we do. And does not mean we are 'not women' by not wanting babies.

Then of course, in able to have the capabilities of making all the babies, we have the downside (read this entire thread to understand it really isn't about fabby hairdos and stunning make-up). A cramping angry uterus with a mind of its own, is no picnic, to put it mildly. That is often 30-40 years of a woman's life. Every four weeks, thirteen times per year, 30-40 years. The on top of that, the government likes to get a 'cut' on what your uterus is doing, and makes money off it. At 80% of the male wage, shelling out for sanitary products, is yet another drain on meagre resources.

Then we have all the shortened career life. People expecting us to look after them even if we are working. People expecting us to put their needs before our own. Usually nothing to retire on except the basic pension and good luck with meeting the heating bills. Not being taken seriously at work. Hearing your own ideas mansplained back to you five minutes later as 'his' idea. A very solid chance of being raped within our lifetime. A very good chance of losing custody of our children to our abuser if we get the courage to leave an abuser. A chance we may end up being one of the two women per week killed by a current or former male partner. Maybe by another relative or acquaintance. Having to navigate the world to avoid predatory and creepy dudes. There are far more than you realise. Trust me, it is NOT a compliment to be 'cat called'. And no, I have never been tempted to "have a piece of him" when offered that on the street.

So yes, stay off the street during the day when there are construction/maintenance workers. And stay off the street at night because some dude will either mistake you for a prostitute or rape you. But don't walk home. And don't take a cab home, he could be a rapist too. And even if you get the guts to take your rapist to court, you will be cross-examined as if you are the one on trial, and the underwear you were wearing that night will be held up in the courtroom for all to see, because somehow certain underwear, even hidden under clothes, makes men rape. And the word of four or five men insisting you consented will be taken as golden and you are just a filthy slut for wanting sex with so many men at once.

If you are murdered, your murder will become salacious fodder for the media, and you somehow deserved your murder, or set him off, or put a cold dinner on the table, late. And the domestic violence femicide rate remains constant, even over the last 20 years since the government and cops are 'now taking it seriously'. Even though when you report somewhat serious assault, they say they can't really do anything.

And most of the women reading this will be nodding at this, not all of it will apply, but most of it will apply - and it is nowhere near a complete list of what it is like to be a woman (I didn't cover birthing, medical, objectification, beauty standards, CSA, prostitution, this list is already way too long).

So pear, do you feel like that? Is that what you envisage 'woman' to be?

As I have said, many a time, read the damned Woman Brochure BEFORE you sign up for it. Because a lot of the shit side you experience (IF you pass) is not transphobia, but boring old misogyny. And it is boring, because it is mundane, everyday, and the background noise to which we have to live our lives.

LaSqrrl much better articulated than by poor attempt!

my**

I'm sorry you live with body dysphoria to such a distressing degree Pears and I don't think you'll find anyone here who believes trans people or black people or disabled people or any kind of people are lesser. In fact MNetters, particularly the posters on FWR, tend to be pretty passionate on these matters, not to mention active in them.

a discussion framed as a dichotomy: that giving me a decent chance to life is a direct attack on women's rights.

Well that's a deeply emotionally manipulative way to put it? Turn that around. Women are being told if we don't hand over our rights like good girls with a smile we're denying trans people a decent chance at life. (Usually in far more dramatic and exaggerated language.)

The thing is, if you're female you know this kind of manipulative crap because it's part and parcel of being female. You recognise it. Your hackles go up the second someone starts it.

If you were born and grew up female you have fought all your life against people demanding that you service them, put them first, prioritise their needs and feelings, sacrifice, count yourself as less important than them. It's constant. It's in everything. It's so much daily life that many women were in their thirties or older before they truly realised how much it happened to them and how angry they were inside about it, and what internalised doormatting and poor boundaries they had.

Many women here have experienced abusive relationships because they were raised to give so others could have, and to put the needs of their angry partner above their need not to be beaten or abused. And had been raised to believe that women have no right to leave abusive situations.

Many women here have left relationships that went bad, and are struggling to parent alone and work having sacrificed their career to raise kids/enable partner to keep working and manage financially while their male partner got to walk away and start again with no legal responsibility other than a minimal financial contribution if he fails to exploit the many loopholes.

Many women here struggle with older generation females in their families who having suffered at the hands of other women in their youth and managed to get some status and control by motherhood either now see it as their turn to get their power by controlling lower status females or cling on to their motherhood role for dear life and try to separate son and kids from wife because to lose that status leaves so little.

Many women here struggle in careers and workplaces where they are constantly talked over, talked down to, patronised, dumped on, by their male colleagues and a system and culture that values men and devalues women.

We're surrounded by marketing and advertising - look at the toddler clothes in any supermarket. They all show that girls should be pretty, make others happy, shouldn't have ambition, but that boys are strong and tough and do exciting things. Girls doing boy things is empowering. Boys doing girl things... that's an insult, that's demeaning. We live in a world of language where 'throw like a girl' is normal.

So when a group are shouting death threats and demands that rights are handed over and that women care for them and prioritise them while surrendering their own rights - and those are rights this group frequently deny have any importance, they have no concept of what these rights are, what they mean or what the impact of removal will be upon women and girls and they loudly state when anyone tries to explain that THEY DONT CARE.....

Why would women be lining up to enable them?

This is NOT all about trans people. They are not the only stake holders. They are not more human than women are. Equality is about EQUAL rights, not superior and special status over others. Not about erasing, disempowering, subordinating others.

I will not ever be nice or co operative about that. What sane person would be?

LaSqrrl much better articulated than my poor attempt!
Probably the longwindedness, and soapboxiness I fear.

LaSqrrl got the points across either way!

YY LaSqrrl

OP claims to feels like a woman, yet cannot, because of birth sex, ever understand what it is to actually be a woman

And yes, I know you've been nice. You sound very nice. But a plea that we give up our rights because it's been so hard for you and it's so distressing for you is still asking women to put you first.

While completely dismissing that any of those women could possibly have things as hard or as distressing themselves. It's just a nice message of 'you're not as important as me and your job is to give me what I need'.

Looks like we cross posted Tinkle

Many women here have experienced abusive relationships because they were raised to give so others could have, and to put the needs of their angry partner above their need not to be beaten or abused. And had been raised to believe that women have no right to leave abusive situations.

Wow, nailed that one. Abusers of course, seem to have 'abuse-dar' to seek out empathetic women that will put others before their own selves. The pot is rich of course. I have been one. Now I am a grumpy old woman who doesn't give a fuck. And I troll the interwebs, shrinking male balls with every sentence I type. Oh how I fail at woman these days! LOL

You said it better Sqrrl

And I'm one too. It took two deeply abusive relationships before I realised how conditioned I was to believe I had no right not to be hurt, no right to say no. So when people tell me my right to say no is hurtful to them and couldn't I please just let them do what they want to me so they can feel better.....?

Part of me feels terrible because the programming is still there.
But I know now how to say NO. And how bloody dare you?

Thank you for your post OP, I really appreciate it and I fully support your right to live as you wish, including dressing as you wish and taking female hormones as these make you feel better. I absolutely believe you should not be discriminated against, be harmed or live in fear of harm. I hope that you find peace, self acceptance and contentment.

However when you describe your feelings as "I feel like a woman" you are not just talking about how you feel but also trying to define how half the human race feels. The range of how women feel is enormous, and encompasses an incredible diversity which also massively overlaps with how men feel because we are all people.

My own identity is firmly based in an intrinsic belief that no one should be constrained into particular patterns of behaviour or self-expression by their sex. When someone asserts that male and female brains are fundamentally different (intrinsic in the claim you can have the wrong kind for your body) that undermines my sense of self by categorising me against my will.

Words don't just mean what the speaker wants them to mean, their meaning evolves through common consent of both speaker and listener. Women often need to adjust their language to take into account the differing experiences of others. Look elsewhere on these boards and you will see that generally in respectful discussions women aren't making statements like "I am a working mum" - because that is disrespectful to the hard work done by those who don't have paid employment but have plenty of work to do especially if they have children with special needs. Nor "I am a home maker" or "I am a full time mum" because that is disrespectful to women who have jobs and who also make homes and are their children's mother 24/7 even when at the office. It may be that one of the most womanly things a trans woman can do is to accommodate the concerns of women into the language used by not making claims about themselves which intrinsically define other people in this way.

Someone who isn't a woman can go no further than saying "I feel how I imagine women may feel" - and then may dial back to adjust that to "some women".

This isn't denying the existence or reality of trans people. I hope that trans people continue to be vibrantly and unashamedly visible and fully participating in society.

I just wish that I could be confident that when my children's school talks to them about this wonderful spectrum of humanity, that the emphasis would be that there is no correct way to be a boy or correct way to be a girl. Anyone can wear and feel and like and be interested in anything they like. Talk of pink brains and blue brains in the wrong body is intrinsically patriarchal and confirming that people should be categorised. Saying that if you feel unhappy with your pigeonhole you should be allowed to move to a different pigeonhole is intrinsically linked to supporting the existence of the pigeonholes. Let's get rid of the pigeonholes instead.

pears welcome.... I am going to take your post at face value - a reaching out and desire to connect.... and I am glad your journey and feelings towards yourself are becoming more positive....

It seems to me as if you are at the very beginning of your journey ... as I was when I found this board back in January. A fascinating and mind-opening journey about how the rights of women and girls, and those of transexuals and transgender people, interweave and often conflict... that it is a messy discussion often lacking definition and unclear boundaries around whose lives are being discussed (like many, I think the interests of transsexuals are VERY different and FAR MORE important than those of AGN men who define themselves as women)

Can I invite you to respond to us in whatever way you want when you come back to this page that has grown so fast in just a day.... and to take more steps in that journey, reading more on this board, challenging yourself and discovering what your beliefs really are..and yes it will take time as little of it is as simple or self-evident as any of us initially think - . and I hope - I truly hope - you might become one of those very important transsexuals brave enough to speak out and help shape the debate, or at the very least to discuss and share amongst your own networks... and echoing a poster above

*If you want to support women, then you'll be working with people like Miranda Yardley & Truscum. You'll be separating yourself from the TRAs, shouting "NOT IN MY NAME" and fighting for our right to retain our single-sex spaces.

How about it?*

As women who care about the lives of women and girls, we need more transsexuals entering the discussion which is full of the angry and aggressive voices of TRAs.... reflective voices that truly embrace the issues and are able to consider them through different eyes, rather than just fighting for what is best for men....

I for one look forward hugely to hearing what you think and hope you will join more discussion threads in the coming weeks... Welcome!

I wish I was born in a female body. I wish I had a female reproductive system

So, you don't 'feel like' a woman, you wish you were a woman. Very different things and if thats what others mean by 'feeling like' a woman, then it makes more sense and I wish they were more honest about it.

I wish i was many things, I wish I was not many things. Thats lfie for you.

I am sorry you have a hard time with dysphoria, but women here are not fighting against your right to a happy life. Just, we care about womens rights. And yes, if you regard self identyication as something that would make your life happier then we do fight against that. I don't see how self ID would help people with dysphoria like yourself though, given you actually do have dysphoria and have (I presume? If the dysphoria is that bad) been 'living as a woman for a while now? So you could get a GRC anwyay under current rules. If the money is an issue, its means tested.

If your problem is with women saying sex segregation should remain, please take that fight to transactivists. As I am sure you are aware, until transactivists started their self-entitled bollocks, women did not care about transsexual people in their areas. Its only fairly recently that more and more women started to say no, and its nothing to do with transsexual people, everything to do with 'transgender' people (meaning those who simply say they are women..and expect that thats it) and transactivists though.

Here's the thing. Random trans people coming on here to try to persuade feminists into common cause with them all seem to make the same mistake. The theme is on the physical and emotional effort the person has gone to in order to "feminise" themselves. But that's not what feminists are interested in! It's what feminists are trying to escape.

Instead of focusing on your feminisation, OP, try focusing on your socialisation instead.

There have been a LOT of 'both sides are as bad as each other, feminists should be nicer' posts these past few weeks. Is this the new angle? I have still yet to see anyone telling transactivists to stop threatening to rape and murder women who disagree with them and caring only about the rights of male people (while oddly enough, also abusing transsexual women), but plenty of people berating women for believing in biology and caring about the rights of women

The theme is on the physical and emotional effort the person has gone to in order to "feminise" themselves. But that's not what feminists are interested in! It's what feminists are trying to escape

Spot on LangCleg

@pearsapplesbananas

I am responding directly to you, without reading any of the other comments.

"When I say "I feel like a woman" to somebody, what I mean is:

I wish I was born in a female body. I wish I had a female reproductive system, and that I could carry a child. Every time I look into the mirror, I want to smash my face against it. Every time I look at a "normal" family, my heart sinks, because I will likely never get to have that.

I have sympathy for your pain. However, you do understand that this isn't something that women feel? What you're describing is not what it feels like to be a woman. That sounds like what it feels like to be a man who envies womanhood. That is not a bad thing! Our patriarchal society has taught us that women envying masculinity is natural and normal, but men envying femininity is shameful. It isn't. It is ok. You are OK.

Hormones make me feel less bad. Besides easing my physical dysphoria, they have also important psychological effects (like some women experience with their cycles). They are a tool that helps me deal with my… bad luck at birth.

This is a personal request, please don't compare your hormonal effects to our cycles. They are completely different things. This is important to me because a woman's body is in a constant state of flux, every day of her cycle is different from the last. Women ourselves are only just now starting to comprehend the extent of this because we have been taught to view our body through a male lens, i.e. "just like men, but...". In this case "just like men but with estrogen". A woman's cycle is a totally different thing and being taught that we are similar to men but for a few hormones causes many women to live in shame, pain and misery because we are prevented from understanding how to respond to our unique body and its changing seasons. Your hormones do not fluctuate on a day to day or week to week basis like ours do. Equating our experiences diminishes us both.

It makes me sad to hear you talk about your 'bad luck at birth.' As someone who has suffered through a straight decade of body dysphoria (as I'm sure many of the women here have), please believe me when I say there is nothing wrong with your body. There is nothing wrong with who you are. There is nothing wrong with how you were born. There also isn't anything wrong with wanting to change aspects of your body, and aspects of your appearance, when it's done from a place of self love rather than self loathing. In my experience, you can't hate yourself into a version that you can love. The road doesn't go that way.

But I'm slowly starting to empower myself. Coming out of this endless spiral of self-disgust and self-pity. I might be wrong but, from what I read, it seems like there is a discussion framed as a dichotomy: that giving me a decent chance to life is a direct attack on women's rights. Well, I wouldn't see how, and of course, I wouldn't want it to be.

I don't think anyone here is opposed to you having a decent life. No one here is opposed to you having a glorious and joyful life! What we are opposed to is the idea that you must 'become a woman' to get that. Because you can't. They only way for you to become any sort of woman is to change what 'woman' means so much that it no longer describes or applies to women. Obviously, that would not be not OK and would be an attack on women's rights. I am a woman. You are a transwoman. We are both humans equally deserving of peace, dignity and respect.

I might soliloquize here for a bit on what my view of transwomen are;

Transwomen are men. This is not debatable. They are male humans, members of the sex which produce sperm, which makes them men. That is a cold, inescapable fact.

Transwomen are men who have decided to try to be seen as women, in a patriarchal society that oppresses women in a thousand small and large ways. Transwomen see all the negative consequences of being seen as a woman, or even just as somewhat feminine, and decide to deliberately take it on regardless of the consequences. Even changing their physical bodies to better represent their idea of women. To me, that's something worth celebrating. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all. Heck, if I get to check the box on my next reincarnation of whether I come back as a male or female, I'm not entirely sure I would check female. Transwomen see something so valuable in womanhood that it's worth every sacrifice just to approach it as closely as the can.

Men are really screwed in our patriarchal society. We arbitrarily label half of all human traits as masculine and the other half as feminine, and value the former over the latter. Girls are expected to be feminine, but they're also expected to WANT to be masculine. After all, that's all the 'good' stuff. That's why women aren't shamed (or even noteworthy) for wearing pants or short hair, but men are shamed for wearing dresses and long hair. Because for a man to want the other half of human traits, the feminine stuff, that doesn't square with the whole patriarchal structure. So we demand that men cut out half of their own hearts, that they cut away their 'weak' bits to make themselves stronger (Which makes as much sense as pursuing strength by removing your left arm).
Transwomen are men who so value the parts of themselves deemed feminine that they'd rather cut out the masculine parts instead. Sometimes, even the physical body parts that represent masculinity.

We as a society told these men "You can't be a man and behave like women" and they said "then screw being a man".

That's bloody incredible.
That's beautiful
That's the purest and most emphatic form of goddess worship that I can conceive of.

There's one sticking point which, if we could get over it would unify both sides of this.

Can you, as a transwomen, identify with women, instead of as a woman? Can you associate with femininity and womanhood without claiming it for yourself?

I know that you're unhappy as a man and I truly do empathize with that, as I have been unhappy as a woman in the past. However, the problem was never in me, it was all around me. You are not wrong, you are not the problem. You are fine. You are already whole, as you are. As a male who is feminine, as a male who envies womanhood, and/or as a male who pursues womanhood while knowing it is ultimately unattainable. We are both divine incarnations of the goddess.

Transwomen as a group have been hijacked by "non dysphoric trans lesbians" (straight perverts looking to erode women's boundaries) and by patriarchal power structures (using transwomen to fill women's quotas and avoid having to hire/appoint women to positions of power) for their own purposes. The current state of transgender-ism in politics and society is patriarchal and anti-woman and so women are being forced to oppose it. It doesn't have to be that way, but this one is entirely on transwomen to change their own movement.