Channel 4's Genderquake Debate is heavily criticised/ boycotted(?) by prominent transgender activists & allies .

[R0wantrees]

Transgender campaigners and organisations have released an open letter to Channel 4 criticising Genderquake, a season of programmes touted as an exploration of the gender debate, as "counterproductive".
Signees are particularly concerned about Genderquake: The Debate, a studio discussion hosted by Cathy Newman that promises to look at what gender means in 2018. It will discuss topics including: 'what defines our gender identity', 'how that affects our rights', 'should it be easier to change gender' and 'does gender matter'.

The letter, published by indy100 in full below, argues that the debate will give legitimacy to transphobia, prejudice and the notion that trans identities are up for discussion. This concern is presumably stoked by the presence of Australian-born academic and writer Germaine Greer on the panel, who has previously said transgender women "can't be women". continues...

"The letter is published in full below and has been signed by dozens of prominent transgender and non-binary activists and campaigners - and allies - alike, including Fox Fisher, Owl, Stephanie Hirst, Juno Roche, Travis Alabanza, Kate Llewellyn, Jack Monroe and India Willoughby."

www.indy100.com/article/genderquake-the-debate-transphobia-channel-4-open-letter-campaigners-germaine-greer-8341481

It’s far from perfect but it’s better than what I have now.

Fake is better than what nature gave you? Ok. I'm not playing into the delusion any more. You will, if you go down the surgery route end up with a fake vagina, fake breasts and if you have FFS a fake face, in an attempt to be a 'real' woman. Can't you see the irony?

NatLuc, if someone told you that such surgery had been outlawed (for whatever reason) and that you would just have to make do without it - would there be a bit of you that was relieved?

Not so very many decades ago, there were no surgical options. I presume people must on the whole have found other ways to handle or suppress their dysphoria (and some of course wouldn’t have coped).

I just wonder - might it actually better to feel there is no choice?

Hi Natluc

I have nightmares about getting pregnant again. My elective was due to placenta previa. It was borderline but an emergency c section would have been on the cards anyway

A lifetime of pain is a serious possibility. I get that your body feels like a prison but pain is just a different prison.

I understand the relief that making the decision to have the surgery brings and only you can decide whether the psychological benefits outweigh the lifelong aftermath of surgery

@spontaneousgiventime - you have your opinion and that is fine. This is the only surgical intervention I need. I have been lucky with hormones. No need for breast augmentation, the real ones I have developed myself are fine even if they stopped developing today, I wouldn’t moan because genetically I have been very lucky. I don’t need FFS because again, I’ve been lucky. I am working with the gifts I do have (face structure, breasts I have developed myself), but no amount of hormones will make me grow or develop a vagina or uterus, womb and ovaries.

You might call it delusion and you are welcome to. But it doesn’t change the fact that this is happening to me. It’s real. I am not choosing to put myself through this for shiggles.

@Lancelottie - I’d find a way even if it did mean going to America or other places. I wouldn’t feel relief, I’d feel despair. Because then my only realistic option and chance to feel like my body is congruent with my identity would be gone. I can’t speak for others authoratively.. but I’d imagine that self harm and worse would be the coping mechanisms that many would employ. :(

natluc hope everything works out for you the surgery does seem like the right answer for many of the trans posters we have on here.

@Elletorro - Thank you for your reply.. I am sorry if it stirred up anything uncomfortable for you but I do appreciate your insight and experience with this. It has certainly given me something else to consider before making any decisions and that is good as more information is better.

I do hope that your pain gets better.

Lucy

Good luck Natluc

I know that whatever decision I make will be the right one

No , you hope your decision will be the right one and I hope so too.

Meanwhile women in their mid thirties are being told they can't possibly know they won't want another child, or that a hypothetical man in the future won't want them to have another child, and so are denied minor keyhole surgery that would mean they never have to worry about an unplanned pregnancy again.

PencilsInSpace Exactly. One rule for women and another for trans people it seems.

Natluc i hope you get what you need Good luck

Im childfree by choice and i spent a long time in my 20s and early 30s asking to be sterilized and kept getting refused. Im 45 this year so it doesnt matter now but it was bloody frustrating to be told i didnt know my own mind (which hasnt changed as i still dont ever want to be a parent) im closer to menopause now but it was bloody frustrating at the time.

I've considered where best to raise this issue and so have copied my comment from the thread discussing Dr Adrian Harrop's recent responses to the Genderquake Debate:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3244781-dr-adrian-harrop-who-the-funk-does-he-think-he-is

On both the Victoria Derbyshire show (5/3/18) and Genderquake debate, TRA's used the analogy of women who had had hysterectomies being as 'real a woman' as trans women.

In both cases, I don't think this assertion was challenged on by the female hosts of either show.

I would hope though that any doctor, GP or otherwise would be aware of the women, particularly younger women, who have had hysterectomies due to medical necessity (eg Gyny Cancer) and the impact that this has on their lives.

Using, what is for many, a serious operation, to win what seems to me a semantic argument is deeply offensive to those women as well as showing a shallow regard for critical thinking and logic

Having being involved with lobbying for better awareness and resources for women affected by gyny cancers I feel that sadly, this lack of consideration and regard reflects the wider picture.

Thread discussing Victoria Derbyshire show here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3184532-Pilgrim-Tucker-who-spoke-at-the-meeting-last-Tuesday-being-stitched-up-on-TV-tomorrow

I am also going to use this opportunity to try to raise awareness, this after all being the Feminism and Women's Rights board.
The Eve Appeal has just launched a campaign, 'Get Lippy':

There are five gynaecological cancers – womb, ovarian, cervical, vaginal and vulval – but awareness levels of these cancers are very low.

There are common signs and symptoms across some of the gynaecological cancers such as abnormal vaginal bleeding. Other signs are less obvious, and could be due to different health conditions, for example abdominal bloating can indicate Irritable Bowel Syndrome.

Each year in the UK, over 21,000 women are diagnosed with a form of gynaecological cancer. This equates to 58 women receiving this life-changing news every day. Sadly 21 women will die from a gynaecological cancer every day.

That's far too many mothers, wives, daughters, partners and friends in our opinion, and at The Eve Appeal we're determined to change this. Part of our mission is to ensure that women and men are aware of what to look out for, because recognising gynaecological cancer symptoms can mean an earlier diagnosis, leading to a better outcome.

To find out more about each of the five gynaecological cancers:
eveappeal.org.uk/gynaecological-cancers/

Please also be aware of the important work being done by:
www.jostrust.org.uk
www.actiononwombcancer.org.uk
www.targetovariancancer.org.uk
www.ovacome.org.uk
ovarian.org.uk

with apologies for all other services, organisations, support groups etc I have missed.

Oh R0wantrees that has touched me. Currently being investigated for cancer Slow progress to check for cervical cancer as I'm under smear test age.

TwittleBee I do hope that you are being well-treated. The charities above have some great resources, support lines and forums where you'll find extra support if you need it. Take good care of you

Sarah Ditum writes in The Guardian:
Genderquake failed. Now for a proper trans debate
Channel 4’s discussion on gender and identity didn’t work, but that it was tried offers hope

(extract)
"In these conditions, for Channel 4 to get the debate on air at all counts as an achievement. It took careful negotiation, a lot of cloak and dagger and multiple stand-in panellists to insure against dropouts. But what actually went out on air was a woeful missed opportunity. Conversation never took hold. Despite an impressively broad spread of participants (two trans women, three feminists of various stripes, a trans man and a genderqueer drag king), talk time was dominated by the two trans women. The trans man and drag king – two perspectives rarely given attention in gender discussions – hardly got to talk at all.

By the end of the hour, a fractious studio audience had resorted to heckling, with comments such as “you’re a man” shouted at Munroe from the floor. For those who thought the debate should never have happened – the trans activists who considered it to be denying their right to exist – this was a vindication. For feminists, it proved our voices always come last on this issue. All parties have plentiful reason for frustration, but the most significant one isn’t any specific shortcoming of this particular event. It’s that Britain urgently needs to have this discussion. At the moment, we can’t....

concludes...
Then there are the questions that can’t be answered as long as debate is considered to be violence. Why was there a 20-fold increase in children referred to NHS gender identity services between 2010 and 2017 and why has that rise been driven by female adolescents identifying as boys or non-binary? As many lesbians observed, there seems no place for butches: young women who don’t identify with the faff and submission of femininity now often tend not to identify as women at all.

Underneath the celebration of the “genderquake” are hard problems and grievous losses. Is it a triumph for liberalism to suggest to boyish girls they might be male and girlish boys that their true self is female? How can we counter sexism if institutions no longer “see sex”? Only through debates such as the one Channel 4 attempted can such questions begin to be answered; the next attempt needs to be better."
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/13/genderquake-failed-now-for-a-proper-trans-debate

TRA's used the analogy of women who had had hysterectomies being as 'real a woman' as trans women.

That is such a stupid argument. You have to be a woman to have a hysterectomy.

Wow, I am in awe, that is amazingly balanced and quite frankly very generous from Ditum, given how she was treated by C4 and the other panellists, I would be fuming - she is magnanimous, forgiving, hopeful and still looking at the big picture. What a woman!

She’s right too, that it happened at all is a step forward.

Link to thread re Stephen Whittle's briefing notes for some of the panel on GenderQuake Debate:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3249035-Stephen-Whittle-s-blog-on-Genderquake-with-a-detailed-briefing-for-panelists

Huffpost article:

(extract)
"Ofcom has been flooded with complaints since Channel 4’s controversial ‘Genderquake’ debate earlier this week.

On Wednesday (8 May) the broadcaster aired ‘Genderquake: The Debate’, which was panned by viewers over the way nuanced issues were crammed into a one-hour show.

It also faced a backlash when panellists Caitlyn Jenner and Munroe Bergdorf were heckled with transphobic abuse from the studio audience, though those delivering said abuse were not removed from the room...."

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/genderquake-the-debate-ofcom-complaints_uk_5af7f500e4b0e57cd9fa3e19

@TwittleBee

Let Chanel 4 be fucking honest and admit they set it up like that!

Then let the beeb host a real debate about self id.

I don't want to debate trans people's right to exist (no one is doing that anyway) I want to debate the right of any dude to self id, to use female only spaces regardless of how they id, or to define what makes a female.

I want to know who thinks it is ok for men to debate about boys in tents at girl guide camps!

Let's see these pc kool-aid drinkers explain why women have no right to refuse a smear test from a male nurse.

No heckling, just honest talking about why the fuck anyone thinks 1% gets to dictate to 51%.

Channel 4's 'What makes a woman' by Munroe Bergdorf discussed here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3251002-Munroe-Bergdorf-What-Makes-a-Woman-Channel-4-16-5

"On this episode of TyskySour Michael Walker is joined by Ash Sarkar and Shon Faye to talk about the clusterfuck that was Channel 4’s GenderQuake debate and the state of trans rights in Britain, everyone’s favourite salted meat and whether anyone actually cares what Germaine Greer has to say anymore."

novaramedia.com/2018/05/14/the-ciscourse/

Lolololol Germaine Greer has been a powerful force for change in our society, and is one of our leading intellectuals, regardless of how much any of us may or may not agree with her.

Pooh poohing Greer like that makes them sound like childish lightweights. Toddlers having a fake tea party with imaginary tea.