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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Channel 4's Genderquake Debate is heavily criticised/ boycotted(?) by prominent transgender activists & allies .

802 replies

R0wantrees · 08/05/2018 17:11

Transgender campaigners and organisations have released an open letter to Channel 4 criticising Genderquake, a season of programmes touted as an exploration of the gender debate, as "counterproductive".
Signees are particularly concerned about Genderquake: The Debate, a studio discussion hosted by Cathy Newman that promises to look at what gender means in 2018. It will discuss topics including: 'what defines our gender identity', 'how that affects our rights', 'should it be easier to change gender' and 'does gender matter'.

The letter, published by indy100 in full below, argues that the debate will give legitimacy to transphobia, prejudice and the notion that trans identities are up for discussion. This concern is presumably stoked by the presence of Australian-born academic and writer Germaine Greer on the panel, who has previously said transgender women "can't be women". continues...

"The letter is published in full below and has been signed by dozens of prominent transgender and non-binary activists and campaigners - and allies - alike, including Fox Fisher, Owl, Stephanie Hirst, Juno Roche, Travis Alabanza, Kate Llewellyn, Jack Monroe and India Willoughby."

www.indy100.com/article/genderquake-the-debate-transphobia-channel-4-open-letter-campaigners-germaine-greer-8341481

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R0wantrees · 10/05/2018 11:05

Just so everyone knows the entire ITN team had diversity training from either Gendered Intelligence or GIRES the week or two before.

The scope of what it is to be an 'ally' to people who are transgender, which may be part of some diversity training, is discussed here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228481-Cis-allies-being-asked-to-provide-protection

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Melamin · 10/05/2018 11:56

I think the 'diversity training' is a real problem.

It is creating barriers and it is not helping the people who need to be helped. It makes 'transphobes' out of people who do not say things in the way that they want it.

In the bit I saw, it probably explains CN interviewing style where she was quick to make a sentence that contained both transgender and predator in terms of explaining possible loopholes into "you are saying transgender people are sexual predators and are therefore a Transphobe" which did not really help the programme at all and pushed everyone into defensive boxes.

From watching Rose of Dawn's video, there were people there ready and willing and wanting to talk which would have been really interesting if they had, and instead the programme makers managed to produce a car crash.

Melamin · 10/05/2018 11:57

Nothing will change though unless the sensible transgender people get involved. No one else will be listened to.

Baroquehavoc · 10/05/2018 12:25

Nothing will change though unless the sensible transgender people get involved. No one else will be listened to.

It may help, but I'm not convinced that it's a given that it will be beneficial for women and girls. Even moderate, sensible TIM rely on gender. Most, even if they acknowledge that they are male and have male socialisation, will say that they want to be seen and treated like women. What's that if it isn't promoting gender roles.

Cwenthryth · 10/05/2018 12:44

Nothing will change though unless the sensible transgender people get involved. No one else will be listened to.

Well, they’re trying! They accept invitations to this debate and are ignored, they submit letters and articles to national newspapers, they are vocal participants in the WNTT/WPUK movements. They are derided as “truscum”, smeared, investigated.

And anyway, I’m not accepting that women will not be listened to. We will keep speaking until what we are saying is heard.

Melamin · 10/05/2018 12:48

I don't think they will change anything for the women and girls. That is who the training is directed against. They are just being 'awkward' and not accepting it. All the training sets them up as being wrong thinkers. I think more moderate transgender people are happy to sit back and let it happen if they believe it is giving them something. I don't think they see the harms or the breakdown of safeguarding that it promotes.

I just think that until they realise that this approach it is not giving them what they want, which is socialisation into 'women's society' but is instead creating divisions and opening them up to be the scapegoats for the misdeeds of others that fall under the wide umbrella, and stand up and say this is not what they want, it will all just carry on in their name.

Some headway has been made with Woman's Place, and also the letter to the Guardian with respect to the law changes. But these diversity organisations are a problem and they are outside the law changes. We can fight them with logical reason and legal action, but it can also be tackled by other stakeholders from the inside.

therealposieparker · 10/05/2018 12:59

You know who have to speak up? Men. It pains me to say it, but those in the most powerful positions are men.

DeleteOrDecay · 10/05/2018 13:05

I think you're right posie. Unfortunately they don't seem overly bothered until asked whether they'd sleep with a transwoman or not. Transmen don't seem to demand the impossible as frequently as Tim's do.

Imagine if tif's acted the way many tims do? Men wouldn't put up with it nor would they be expected to. They wouldn't fanny around trying not to be offensive either. It's crap how much women are expected to put up with in pretty much every aspect of life. It's exhausting.

Baroquehavoc · 10/05/2018 13:16

I wish more debates were set up about the prejudices and abuse transpeople face, and who is responsible, rather than TIM constantly whining that women don't think humans can change sex. TIM don't seem the least bit troubled when men don't believe humans can't change sex, or the abuse women and girls receive for being female.

Baroquehavoc · 10/05/2018 13:19

I meant to add,the debates all seem to be focused around the wants of TIM - not the rights of anyone else.

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2018 13:19

David TC Davies, Brian Paddick, James Kirkup, Andrew Gilligan...

...all seem to be trying in some capacity, but even they are facing difficulty and barriers.

Its not just a few men, but many men that need to speak and crucially men from the left.

Fwiw I believe that if you talk to liberal leaning men of a certain age (ones with kids, particularly daughters), if you go at it at the right angle they are not happy. Men who want their daughters to have careers and be gender non-conforming.

The problem is, that this idea is totally off their radar...

DeleteOrDecay · 10/05/2018 13:19

They want us to validate them. We are actual, born women and I suppose the way they see it is if they can get the 'natal' women to agree and 'approve' that they are in fact women, then they've won that validation.

Unfortunately things haven't worked out like that and now they are throwing their toys out of the pram. Typical Male behaviour.

R0wantrees · 10/05/2018 13:36

Nothing will change though unless the sensible transgender people get involved. No one else will be listened to.

I would encourage people to follow @JustAngryBird on Twitter. She is a transgender and was one of the founders of TransOxford and wrote in response to protests at WPUK Oxford meeting, "tonight the bullied became the bullies"

full text in thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3234661-Condemnation-of-the-shameful-campaign-of-bullying-intimidation-against-WPUK-meeting-by-founder-of-TransOxford

Her recent long twitter thread and thoughts:

"Sex Wars and how to end them
What makes a woman?
We all know that biology makes a female of the species with a distinctly different reproductive system from that of a male. There’s no arguing about it. And women are adult female humans and they don’t have penises.

And even if any of them, by some freak whim of nature, have anything resembling one they won’t wear a loud t-shirt claiming it or wave the very thing, like a red rag, in front of the angered feminists.

For a number of reasons, first of which is that ‘women don’t have penises’. And women don’t like drawing attention to themselves for no good reason and it would be impolite and upset others. And it would be too much a male thing to do.

We know that women are raised differently from men. We can blame it on patriarchal sociocultural traditions, objective biological and physiological differences, and general unwillingness of many women (but by no means all) to be different from the others, to stand out from the crowd too much.

Female life experience, even in our modern western world where ‘women’s liberation’ has allegedly happened, is as distinctly different from that of a male, as their biology.

You cannot understand widely enough and in depth all the aspects and the nuances of the issues which worry women of all ages unless you have lived through it and are a mature experienced woman, not a young girl, let alone a teenage boy who has been identifying as a woman for few years and have recently started feminisation of his male body.

No one has an inherent understanding of these issues, they come either with life experience and relevant socialisation or many years of unbiased academic research.

Female body develops differently from that of a male and it takes many years of HRT to change any male body into anything resembling that of a female, which is why trans women athletes should either compete in a separate category of their own or only be allowed to compete in female contests after a sufficient number of years of feminisation (but it’s likely that by then they would retire)."
continues here: twitter.com/JustAngryBird/status/994143600144502784

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R0wantrees · 10/05/2018 13:42

NB apologies for the 'a' before transgender, this is a typo!

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spontaneousgiventime · 10/05/2018 13:49

Following complaints made by the LGBTIQA+ Greens and others, Olivia Palmer, a member of the party who engaged in transphobic abuse during the Channel 4 Genderquake debate, has now been suspended. We would like to reiterate for everyone that there is no place in the Green Party for transphobia, and we are glad that the Party has been able to demonstrate its commitment to our policy - "The Green Party recognises that trans men are men, trans women are women, and that non-binary identities exist and are valid." (RR530) - through its actions. We would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to report this issue, and encourage people to continue calling out instances of transphobia when they see them.

lgbtiqa.greenparty.org.uk/news/2018/05/10/action-taken-on-transphobic-abuse-during-channel-4-genderquake-programme/

mousecar · 10/05/2018 13:53

what is happening in terms of advocating for actual trans rights? I can't seem to find it through all the guff about them being 'women's rights'. It's a complete derail. I've got disabilities for equality act purposes - part of not being discriminated against is about not being treated the same as people without the same obstacles. this insistence on sameness is bad for everyone. - i think a lot of trans people know that.

mousecar · 10/05/2018 13:54

The Green Party recognises that trans men are men, trans women are women, and that non-binary identities exist and are valid. ah ffs.

R0wantrees · 10/05/2018 13:59

Previous concerns of Green Party Members discussed here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3152500-Any-gender-critical-Green-Party-members-on-here?pg=1

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DeleteOrDecay · 10/05/2018 13:59

Wow. Fuck the Green Party.

Cwenthryth · 10/05/2018 14:04

Oh, FFS. Unsurprising though.

Can anyone confirm what is is that Olivia said, that has been classed as ‘transphobic abuse’? I’m sure I read somewhere that she denied being the person who had just heckled ‘penis’.

Baroquehavoc · 10/05/2018 14:05

The Green Party recognises that trans men are men, trans women are women, and that non-binary identities exist and are valid.

But the green party don't recognise the need for female humans to have words to describe themselves.

Baroquehavoc · 10/05/2018 14:08

Can anyone confirm what is is that Olivia said

I think it was the fact that she was even there that was the problem for the party.

mousecar · 10/05/2018 14:08

the word recognise should really be reckons. Where the fuck did this all come from?

R0wantrees · 10/05/2018 14:10

Presumably its a suspension pending investigation?

Cf Venice Allen's interview with the Labour Party after which she resigned.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3188312-Venice-Allan-Dr-Radfem-resigns-from-Labour

Linda Bellos police interview under caution after which the CPS were not minded to pursue a case.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237264-Linda-Bellos-arrested-Title-edited-by-MNHQ-to-make-clear-that-she-was-in-fact-interviewed-under-caution

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MonsoonMama · 10/05/2018 14:20

It also appears that the Green Party issued their statement before they bothered to inform Olivia about the suspension - twitter.com/joss_prior/status/994558735426228224 (not sure how to make that a clicky link..?)

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