Channel 4's Genderquake Debate is heavily criticised/ boycotted(?) by prominent transgender activists & allies .

[R0wantrees]

Transgender campaigners and organisations have released an open letter to Channel 4 criticising Genderquake, a season of programmes touted as an exploration of the gender debate, as "counterproductive".
Signees are particularly concerned about Genderquake: The Debate, a studio discussion hosted by Cathy Newman that promises to look at what gender means in 2018. It will discuss topics including: 'what defines our gender identity', 'how that affects our rights', 'should it be easier to change gender' and 'does gender matter'.

The letter, published by indy100 in full below, argues that the debate will give legitimacy to transphobia, prejudice and the notion that trans identities are up for discussion. This concern is presumably stoked by the presence of Australian-born academic and writer Germaine Greer on the panel, who has previously said transgender women "can't be women". continues...

"The letter is published in full below and has been signed by dozens of prominent transgender and non-binary activists and campaigners - and allies - alike, including Fox Fisher, Owl, Stephanie Hirst, Juno Roche, Travis Alabanza, Kate Llewellyn, Jack Monroe and India Willoughby."

www.indy100.com/article/genderquake-the-debate-transphobia-channel-4-open-letter-campaigners-germaine-greer-8341481

@RedToothBrush

Not sure if you're on twitter but Lachlan Stuart is worth following @lachlan_edi

He's a very experienced policy advisor to the Labour Party.

He's pro trans rights wrt equality and discrimination but seems to also see the complexities of the issues wrt the impingement on women's rights and that this is not one sided debate and re-tweets WPUK for example - he seems to understand the nuances of the debate.

I'd definitely recommend those on twitter to look him up.

Oops, sorry, it is clickable

I was there. She says nothing transphobic.

The problem is, there's a clear difference of opinion as to what's deemed "transphobic". I think most people here would say that "men cannot become women" for example isn't transphobic, whereas the TRAs and some "woke" organisations would say that it is transphobic. I'd be interested to know whether it's ever been tested in the courts, as it has implications for all of us, in the workplace for example. Can you be an "out" GC person in the workplace, or is that incompatible with discrimination laws? In fact, does even being an "out" Rad Fem expose you to sex discrimination claims at work because RF views might upset some men?

@therealposieparker

Well as not defined as transphobic by you and many others.

I get the frustration. I was humphing/signing/swearing at the iPad watching it.

I also understand the producer encouraged people to actively respond to what the panel said.

However it just didn't play well - it really didn't. It's given ammo to the activists and also re-enforced the stance of no platforming and it pains me to say that.

Without that the focus could and should have been on the gas lighting of GG, the interruptions to SD, the CJ monologues of epic irrelevance etc

I am on twitter but don't tweet.

Will follow.

Did anyone else see Labour MP Thangam Debbonaire's tweets yesterday btw?

Thangam Debbonaire @ thangamMP
Let's clear up a few things. I am NOT opposed to gender self-identification. I am FOR having good law to guide how this works, for the sake of all women including trans women. My aims are to ensure people's needs are best served by whatever laws and services we have [1]
[2] we will only get good law, which works for trans women and trans men, if we are able to ask about and listen to different views, experiences & ideas re how to make gender self ID work. Once law it made, it is hard to undo. I feel the responsibility to get it right very keenly
[3] I know that the potential law changes about gender self ID are very important to people in Bristol West - please email me on [email protected] to share experiences, views and suggestions - I want to hear from you!

Given the recent attempt by her local party to screw her over calling out anti-Semitism in the party and the general hatred towards her and desire to deselect her this is somewhat brave.

Bristol West is just about one of the most hard left / 'liberal' areas of the country.

C4 wanted to be divisive.

I think that all media atm is guilty of this desire to 'show both sides of the argument' and think this is 'balance'.

Its extremely damaging, because you tend to end up with anti-fascists v EDL, or Katie Hopkins v The 'Reformed' Jihadi, or Hard Left Momentum v Tory Swivel Eyed Loon, or Lazy Scrounger v Community Hero etc etc

Because it makes a 'better programme' cos its entertains and engages the viewer or is 'more informative' as it shows the 'full diversity of opinions'

And you are essentially as a viewer asked to pick between one position or another. You are asked to form an opinion on the back of stark black and white examples as if they are representative and reflective of the wider world.

The stuff in the middle is deemed too complicated, too dull and uninteresting or simply too difficult to present actually by tv producers.

We are here today because not only does social media do that but also the press is click driven in this way and tv producers have zero interest in finding common ground.

There's not a moderate voice, nor position in sight.

I will not be told how to behave just in case those that seek the erasure of women will make a fuss. Fuck that.

I am not, will not, will never apologise for those women who were heckling.

I don't care what trans activists say about it. Not one jot.

No one who gave a shot about women was slightly persuaded by the hecklers that women should now be crushed.

Stop this.

Agree 100% with that Red.

@therealposieparker

I didn't tell you how to behave.

I didn't tell you to apologise.

I didn't tell you to care.

I simply gave my opinion on how the heckling was perceived. I'm not alone in that view, though I'm sure neither are you in yours.

I won't however "stop" having an opinion and think it's disrespectful for you ask anyone to do so - quite rudely I might add.

I caved in and watched it. The woman heckler sat behind the presenter and left of Munroe was err interesting??? Couldn't hear what she was saying but the body language was heated.

I thought GG did absolutely amazing considering she couldn't finish a point. Munrue and Jen were uninterested in her even when they agreed with her re gender neutral toilets.

Disappointed in the "cis" feminist. And can't remember the name of the other feminist but how could anyone hear what she was saying what with all the talk overs? Jumping down her throat all the time it was the most misogynistic debate ive seen in a while. Host was scared to interrupt Munroe when she talked over other guests.

Wish we heard more from Kenny. Jen them/they pronouns indivdual looked as if they had an anxiety disorder, certainly described anxiety when they can't find the correct toilet...oh and the banging on the door thing being so violent and traumatic? Really??? Really? God help them if they ever were in a scary situation they'd have a heart attack.

@therealposieparker i read @DarthArts point as more about strategy than avoiding hurting people's feelings/ them making a fuss. For the uninitiated, watching someone heckle a 'woman' about her penis might just sway them the wrong way - make them more likely to accept the claims of TRAs about abuse and the rest of it - lose support for women. It's kind of different to here or on twitter or whatever where people already know what's going on.

@mousecar - yes that was exactly the point. Hence the term "play well" as in to the wider TV audience.

I've been in this fight for a long time. Being polite isn't working, caring about Schroeder's on the fence person who may decide women are not worth it if one shouts man at a trans activists is a fools errand.

Truth is bigotry.

Policing women is shitty.

We are going to need a robust strategy.. I also agree with what posieparker said before about having to get men involved. It's uncomfortable, definitely, but I think that's what it needs. If they do go ahead with this in parliament then at least there should be a consultation stage - lots of submissions to that will be a good idea.

@therealposieparker I appreciate that. I'm not about politeness either - I know politeness not working. I disagree that caring about people on the fence is a fools errand - those are exactly the people we need to encourage over to this side. When I first came across all this i was probably on the other side of the fence - until I understood what it actually meant. I never thought trans women are women, just seemed obvious that not abuse is the 'good' side. My lefty defensiveness of the underdog/minorities would have been brought out by hearing people 'abuse' trans women. Still would actually - although I'm a lot more concerned about women now.

I don't think someone on the fence would then decide women should have no rights because a misogynist wearing women's clothing and had identified as a trans woman for a relatively short time, who said women shouldn't centre reproduction in women's causes, because a woman shouted "this is what the patriarchy looks like".

Trans activists are using manipulative coercion, asking for small concessions like pronouns which then fuck with your mind. After pronouns it's trans women are women, then gender is more real than biology.

Before you know it all of rights will be gone. And where will all the politeness be then? This is a battle, they have weaponised everything we hold dear against us.

Right - sorry. I got it wrong. I thought (don't know why?) she shouted 'you're not a woman you have a penis.' I agree - is she shouted 'this is what the patriarchy looks like' then you're completely right.

Hang on - does that mean she's been suspended from the Green Party for shouting 'this is what the patriarchy looks like?' Fuck.

And yes I know - they're using manipulative coercion. I've dealt with that before and i agree -the gradual changing of our language is scary as fuck. I'm not underestimating the problem. I'm just thinking about how to deal with it. I don't know the answer - i'm just thinking.

anyway don't worry critics of the heckler....

She's got some lovely rape and death threats and been expelled from the Green Party, so we can all tell ourselves how right we are to tell her she should have stayed silent.,

fucked. off.

I dunno maybe she did say you're not a woman you have a penis, that's pretty damned fair too.

The green party is for non men surprised she wasnt expelled before for being a woman. Sneezing on Twitter will get a woman a rape and death threat unfortunately I ent surprised about that.

One of the effects of coercive control and psychological abuse is the target (women) get enraged from the unrelenting covert abuse (the putdowns, the dismissals, the talking over, the ignoring) etc. To the uninformed she/they can look like the "problem" as the men continue their charade and good cop routine by saying "look I always told you she was the problem" - blah blah

Don't get angry at enraged women - they are having a normal response to constant bullying - get angry at the men and their flying monkeys who are causing this - name the problem - male violence.

It's true yes - what's the other thing manipulative coercive abusers do though? In my experience they make damned sure they look like the victim in public and to the public (and her friends/family) and the person they're abusing looks like a crazy fucking loon - the one who is the problem.. One way to make sure she doesn't get help or sympathy. its deep and clever and evil.

my views about that are not synonymous with condoning rape or death threats or her suspension from the green party.