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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Employment law and pregnant men

139 replies

YesILikeItToo · 05/05/2018 15:24

Does anyone know what the impact of including transmen in the legal definition of man would be in the context of workplace law? Would it erode rights arising from rules on indirect discrimination if men get pregnant too? Or would the fact that so few men would be involved leave these rights in place?

OP posts:
McTufty · 05/05/2018 15:29

Pregnancy is now a protected characteristic in its own right under the Equality Act (not just a subset of sex discrimination as previously) so probably not too much. It is the fact of pregnancy that counts.

Although the act does refer to pregnant women which trans men may wish to have amended!

UpstartCrow · 05/05/2018 15:30

Men don't get pregnant, as sex is a protected characteristic. Transgender people have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. they can expect to be treated as someone from the opposite sex or not less favourably; they do not actually become that sex.

Original poster
YesILikeItToo · 05/05/2018 15:31

Thanks, that’s helpful.

OP posts:
Original poster
YesILikeItToo · 05/05/2018 15:34

Upstart, I was thinking of a situation where definitions of ‘man’ and ‘woman’ start to change, like in the recent piece of Scottish legislation which included people embarking on a process to become a women in the definition of women.

OP posts:
keyboardjellyfish · 05/05/2018 15:47

Hi, I'm a trans man. Unless a trans man has a GRC this wouldn't affect them and pregnancy is a protected characteristic by itself so it would probably be fine anyway.

Original poster
YesILikeItToo · 05/05/2018 16:19

Thanks jellyfish - that’s the bit of info I was missing, the separate protection for pregnancy.

OP posts:
keyboardjellyfish · 05/05/2018 16:39

Like many, many, many laws though, it's one of the ones that will be open to interpretation and potentially used to discriminate against trans folks which is why you'll find so many trans men who are pregnant or want to be parents delaying getting GRCs so that they can definetely access care (I am one of those trans men). It's sad and shit.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 17:13

Hi, I'm a trans man. Unless a trans man has a GRC this wouldn't affect them and pregnancy is a protected characteristic by itself so it would probably be fine anyway

Indeed. The protections offered in relation to people who are pregnant or breastfeeding apply to people who are actually pregnant or breastfeeding regardless of whether they say they are man, woman or alien from outer space.

(Someone will no doubt quote that US case relating to firing a breastfeeding woman not being discrimination because some men can bf also. That is not how UK or EU law works)

Ereshkigal · 05/05/2018 17:14

Which is precisely why we need clear wording differentiating sex from gender identity.

Ereshkigal · 05/05/2018 17:22

Lass I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to jellyfish. But there is a possibility that in the future it will not be protected separately. It's sex linked. Also maternity only covers a short period of time.

keyboardjellyfish · 05/05/2018 17:26

Trans people are already discriminated against when it comes to family building so any laws that state genders regarding pregnancy would screw us over completely. I have multiple fertility issues, have been TTC for a year with my partner who is a trans woman and we're already not elegible for NHS fertility treatment because the criteria didn't think of trans people at all and we are almost purposely left out.

The best thing to do re laws and regulations like this is to ask the people going through it.

Ereshkigal · 05/05/2018 17:28

It's about sex, not "gender".

keyboardjellyfish · 05/05/2018 17:33

Meh. It's evident if that's your response that you don't actually want to learn or understand about the barriers and how to break them down- you just want an argument with a trans person.

I'm more than happy to talk about how I've experienced infertility on the NHS as a trans man with my trans partner and the barriers that have affected us personally as well as wider barriers that are put in place to prevent trans folks from accessing care in general. After TTC for a year this is a topic I feel incredibly passionate about and could talk about for hours. I'm not going to waste my breath on someone who is just looking for a fight though, because quite frankly anyone who decides to shit on infertile people because they don't like something they are is terrible and needs to evaluate priorities.

Ereshkigal · 05/05/2018 17:34

I don't. I'd like you to understand why our shared sex is important to us.

Ereshkigal · 05/05/2018 17:35

But I am of course interested to hear your personal experience. Assuming you'll do others the same courtesy.

Ereshkigal · 05/05/2018 17:37

And it's very manipulative to say that I wanted to "shit on infertile people" so please don't.

keyboardjellyfish · 05/05/2018 17:40

I also own a vulva, vagina, and barely working other parts, thanks. I'm trying to make a human, I am aware why our 'shared sex' is important. What I won't abide is people who are not trans refusing to listen because they have very very loose made up opinions based on no stats/facts/etc and trying to act like trans people are the new Gay Horror from the 80's.

I live this. Every single day. I experience misogyny and transphobia from healthcare providers on at least a weekly basis just because I want a baby. I'm not interested in debating my gender. I am interested in talking about trans fertility. Decide which one you're interested in talking about and I'll decide if I'm going to continue this conversation or not.

keyboardjellyfish · 05/05/2018 17:41

I was wondering where the 'you're manipulative cos you're trans' would start so I'm going to leave this thread now. Well done for ballsing it up for anyone else on this thread who would be interested in learning about this.

Ereshkigal · 05/05/2018 17:44

You're doubly manipulative for presenting "you're manipulative by lying that I want to shit on infertile people" as thar I want to shit on trans people.

Ereshkigal · 05/05/2018 17:46

By saying trans people are manipulative. Which I didn't say.

IronMansIronButt · 05/05/2018 17:46

Men cant get pregnant anyway, and the less we pretend they can, the better.

Ereshkigal · 05/05/2018 17:47

Absolutely.

Original poster
YesILikeItToo · 05/05/2018 18:05

Iron that’s taking us back to the question at the top, which was about employment rights really. If legislators are prepared to include transmen in the meaning of man, where does that take us with indirect discrimination?

OP posts:
IronMansIronButt · 05/05/2018 18:09

down the rabbit hole, that's where. I think its better not to concede to them the definitions in the first place. We need to resist the inclusion of transmen in the biological definition of men, the same way we need to resist the definition of transwomen in the state women.

gingergenius · 05/05/2018 18:11

@keyboardjellyfish
You wish to present as male yes? So that's your gender presentation?

This is a genuine question: if you see yourself as a man, why do you want to bear children? I am struggling with the concept that if you feel 'male' and want to be gendered/considered/present as male, then why would it be important for you to do the very thing that encapsulates your femaleness. Why not use a surrogate? Because that's what infertile natal women have to do.

I repeat, this is a genuine question. I would like to understand the mindset that has made you feel so unsupported.