Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6

Original poster

Employment law and pregnant men

139 replies

YesILikeItToo · 05/05/2018 15:24

Does anyone know what the impact of including transmen in the legal definition of man would be in the context of workplace law? Would it erode rights arising from rules on indirect discrimination if men get pregnant too? Or would the fact that so few men would be involved leave these rights in place?

OP posts:

keyboardjellyfish · 05/05/2018 22:24

@Dubious Often an option but my partner wasn't offered it. The gender identity clinics often purposely miss it out especially for trans women. I was asked if I wanted to freeze my eggs but by then I had already decided I would start trying to conceive because I didn't want to start T, be on hormones for years and then start trying- not because it harms fertility but because I was worried about possible transphobia presenting as a man but being pregnant in public.

RaininSummer · 05/05/2018 22:25

Thanks for explaining keyboard. It makes my head explode as it seems that you and your partner are making things about as difficult and reversed as possible. If you long to hear a child it is very likely that you will also want to try to breast feed it. I am afraid I think it is right that scarce resources should not be spent on a person who made themselves infertile. I hope you get your child but I do think that you will be the mother as that is what giving birth is. The status of adoptive mothers is irrelevant I think.

keyboardjellyfish · 05/05/2018 22:26

@Rainin We are not the ones making things difficult. I don't know if I will try and breastfeed- I am very pro breastfeeding but that is a decision I will make at the time because I have no idea how that will be for dysphoria.

IronMansIronButt · 05/05/2018 22:29

We are not the ones making things difficult

Thats not quite true.

SupermatchGame · 05/05/2018 22:30

self-inflicted problems.

Omg Gorgon did you actually just say that? Where have you been for the last 40 years of human civilisation? You know the only people I've heard saying that about trans people are.. the alt-right. The anti abortionists. The homophobes. The white suprematists. The transphobes. Oh wait..

keyboardjellyfish · 05/05/2018 22:30

I need to sleep now (wooo to too-high progesterone peak exhaustion, sigh) and I probably won't come back to this thread because I'm far too busy over the next few weeks with OU assignments but it was good to chat and answer a few questions.

DubiousFeminist · 05/05/2018 22:31

Often an option but my partner wasn't offered it. The gender identity clinics often purposely miss it out especially for trans women.

@keyboardjellyfish Presumably there's a strong legal case against the clinic which failed to make your partner aware of the risk - a finically settlement would allow you to go private.
It sounds as if it's not the system, but the individual clinic, which is at fault.

keyboardjellyfish · 05/05/2018 22:31

If you still have questions feel free to PM and I'll get back to you at some point when I actually have the time :)

Elletorro · 05/05/2018 22:31

Glad to hear you are still chasing it.

What changes to the GRA do you believe would help you in this situation?

Personally I think you are suffering due to misinterpretation by the NHS of the protections available to you under the Equality Act. You need to remember that no matter what the law is there will always be beaurocrats who can’t find their arse with both hands.

GorgonLondon · 05/05/2018 22:32

As she has taken hormones, she is classed as sterilising herself on purpose. As some of you may know this is a criteria for free fertility treatment and because of this we are automatically not eligible. This is an oversight that the NHS hasn't thought of because they haven't thought of trans women whilst writing up criteras for fertility. This is also a barrier that harms not just our family but many families with trans women out there. It is a system flaw that needs to change... It is a medical form of discrimination against trans folks when trying to access reproductive care.

Actually, what this is is treating 'trans folks' exactly the same as everyone else - i.e. saying that people who have deliberately sterilised themselves are not eligible for NHS fertility treatment.

What jellyfish is arguing for is for 'trans folks' to be given extra special treatment and to be the only people to whom this stipulation does not apply.

That would actually be very direct and unlawful discrimination against every other couple who were deemed to have deliberately sterilised themselves.

It's not equal treatment being demanded here, it's special treatment.

keyboardjellyfish · 05/05/2018 22:33

Ooooooh @Elle I would really love to talk about what GRA reforms are needed for trans families so feel free to PM and I'll reply in the next few days but I really can't justify being awake for any longer tonight!

GorgonLondon · 05/05/2018 22:38

SupermatchGame
self-inflicted problems.

Omg Gorgon did you actually just say that? Where have you been for the last 40 years of human civilisation? You know the only people I've heard saying that about trans people are.. the alt-right. The anti abortionists. The homophobes. The white suprematists. The transphobes. Oh wait..

Dear @SupermatchGame , I am very sorry that my post was too difficult to understand.

Problem = infertility
Cause of problem = taking hormones that cause infertility
Therefore problem = self-inflicted. By taking hormones that directly cause the problem.

I'm not sure how I could express that any more clearly, but please do let me know if it needs further clarification and I'll try one more time.

GorgonLondon · 05/05/2018 22:39

(P.S. Not any of those things you more or less listed.)

Elletorro · 05/05/2018 22:39

Good night Keyboard

IronMansIronButt · 05/05/2018 22:40

Omg Gorgon did you actually just say that? Where have you been for the last 40 years of human civilisation?

Same place we've all been, and she's entirely right.

Elletorro · 05/05/2018 22:41

Gorgon

Equality doesn’t mean treating everyone the same. It’s about taking into account their particular circumstances and giving them the same chances. Equality of opportunity

IronMansIronButt · 05/05/2018 22:42

Yes, and it also means that anyone who deliberately removes their own opportunity is excluded from help to gain it back. Everyone is treated the same, as it should be in this instance.

GorgonLondon · 05/05/2018 22:44

What IronMan said. Equality of opportunity means that all people who are infertile through no fault of their own are given the chance of fertility treatment on the NHS.

Elletorro · 05/05/2018 22:47

I believe that if you are disabled and receive medical treatment which impairs your fertility then the NHS doesn’t class you as self sterilised.

Gender dysphoria isn’t a choice

LangCleg · 05/05/2018 22:47

Were they advised of this possibility prior to treatment?

Is this what they're telling you negates the indirect discrimination, Keyboard? Because it seems the logical explanation. Since the NHS doesn't generally perform reversals for sterilisations in any cases - even when they are performed for pressing health reasons - it may well be hard to show discrimination.

I have sympathy here, as I would for any couple whose other medical issues had involved sterilisation for reasons other than not wanting children.

LangCleg · 05/05/2018 22:51

I believe that if you are disabled and receive medical treatment which impairs your fertility then the NHS doesn’t class you as self sterilised.

I thought otherwise but am no expert. If this is the case, then it certainly seems like indirect discrimination.

I understand what others are saying about scarce resources, but scarce resources don't mean the NHS gets to discriminate between patients because of particular comorbidities.

IronMansIronButt · 05/05/2018 22:51

Its not discrimination. It is, for once, common sense.

OlennasWimple · 05/05/2018 22:57

This makes my head hurt....

Taking drugs to suppress male hormones and rendering oneself infertile is surely the very definition of sterilising oneself on purpose? And therefore the ridiculously small coffers of the NHS can't cover the treatment?

And please consider very carefully the implications of insisting on being regarded as the father in every single aspect of your putative DC's life. I'm an adoptive mother, and not having a full medical history is starting to throw up some real issues for my DD. Put simply, if you have a DD, your partner's family history of the incidence of breast cancer is immaterial. Ditto for early puberty and incidence of miscarriage (though I understand that a disposition for endometriosis is something that can be passed through either parent)

I really do wish you and your partner well, keyboard, I understand only too well the primaeval longing for a baby and having bits that won't cooperate. And I don't claim to understand gender dysphoria. But I do know about parenting a child in difficult circumstances, and I hope that you get adequate counselling of the risks and issues you will need to manage if you are successful in having a baby

GorgonLondon · 05/05/2018 23:00

It's so upsetting. One of my close relatives was a leading employment lawyer from the 1960s until a couple of years ago when they retired.

Back in the 60s, it was more or less fine to discriminate openly against women, elderly people, people with disabilities, gay people, BAME groups, religious minorities, etc.

The laws about discrimination and unfair dismissal were absolutely needed and essential to tackle this.

And now people are exploiting those laws to try to get special treatment for entirely self-inflicted conditions, like taking drugs that they knew would cause sterility, or being extremely overweight/obese (www.personneltoday.com/hr/obesity-discrimination-first-uk-tribunal-finds-obese-worker-eligible-for-disability-protection/)

It's such a travesty and exploitation, predominantly by wealthy white people, of laws that were originally put in place to defend the rights of people in minority groups. Awful.

IronMansIronButt · 05/05/2018 23:02

Exactly Gorgon! It's the misappropriation of hard won rights that is so depressing.

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6

Swipe left for the next trending thread