Employment law and pregnant men

[YesILikeItToo]

Does anyone know what the impact of including transmen in the legal definition of man would be in the context of workplace law? Would it erode rights arising from rules on indirect discrimination if men get pregnant too? Or would the fact that so few men would be involved leave these rights in place?

@keyboardjellyfish Thankyou for coming back. Your situation sounds complex. And I sympathise with the "I hate my body" feeling.

I hate my body. To the point that I have tried to deliberately damage it. You talk about your partner's dysphoria and from your posts it seems you struggle to accept who you are physically. No-one should feel that level of dissonance about the body they occupy. Many of us do, but it doesn't manifest as wanting to identify as the opposite sex. I think transgenderism, it's source and resulting identity disorderedness needs much more detailed thinking. I 'get' not being happy with your physical self. I really do. But so much of how we perceive of our physical manifestation is dependent on healthy early development I do struggle with the idea that you want to be male but still crave the biological need to bear a child. I couldn't give birth vaginally. I felt defective. I felt my body had let me down and that I had somehow failed in the job of being female. So yes I get your point but surely you can't e levy to have it all ways?

This is one of the issues that really worries me when people are transitioning so young. If trans people are taking hormones that make them infertile then this is something that needs to be fully explored and understood at the time. It's such a huge decision to take at a relatively young age.

Voice I agree with you completely. It has appalling consequences and I dread to think what kind of situations we might be facing in 15 or 20 years time when all of these people who rendered themselves infertile at such a young age suddenly realise they want to have children.

It will be terrible for them as individuals, and even more terrible for us as a society in general if they all start demanding fertility treatment as well.

It would be hideously unjust if women whose partners have previously had a child with another woman are denied fertility treatment, but those who have made themselves infertile deliberately are given it.

“Problem = infertility
Cause of problem = taking hormones that cause infertility
Therefore problem = self-inflicted. By taking hormones that directly cause the problem”

So the answer to that was that dysphoria is real and requires treatment?

What about a trans person who didn’t have dysphoria but just took the drugs as part of some attempt at /exploration/self-expression/experimentation.

Is there no circumstance under which taking drugs that sterilise you when you are not ill is self sterilisation?

I wanted to be a man at one point in early teens so that I wouldn’t have to get pregnant/give birth.

I can’t pretend to understand keyboard

I completely understand the need to be pregnant and carry a child, but I cant understand a man desperate to become pregnant.

Im also horrified on one hand you want the NHS to provide hormones that cause infertility and then fertility treatement.

The NHS simply cant fund it. Weve already seen debates about whether IVF should be offered at all, and in some areas the provision is appaling.

But you want to appeal and complain and cost them bloody more money so you can be a pregnant man and you believe its the fault of the NHS the childs Mummy cant produce sperm.

Sorry, Ive lost my point. My head hurts.

Erm..... just finding it very strange that the rights of the child are not being considered at all... nor even what is best for the child....just what is best for the parents. This makes me very worried for the child's future - the art of parenting is often putting their needs before your own, however painful.

My understanding of breastfeeding is that your baby will benefit most from your milk, unaduulterated by hormones.... While understanding that your partner, as a transwoman, might want to breast feed I do think we are right in the UK for not making it possible.... those hormones in the milk a newborn is drinking are I imagine toxic and certainly untested....

I agree with Gorgon actually.

I'm baffled as to why anyone would do something knowing it would damage or completely destroy their fertility (which must be one of the main goals of transitioning?), and then later demand some kind of magical reversal (which presumably just isn't always possible, even with all the money in the world?)

It's a bit different from a negligent case of "quick, swallow these pills to survive this emergency, and ah, sorry about that unexpected side effect", isn't it?

Either someone is mentally healthy and intelligent enough to transition (in which case they're responsible for making a choice about their fertility and taking ownership of it) or they're not.

I know all too well the fucking agony and tedium of infertility, it's ruined a large part of my adult life and made my future feel very bleak and miserable, so on one level I can completely sympathise.

But if I'd been doing something to actively cause it for a number of years which I knew would have that affect, I wouldn't be now blaming the NHS for not making magical provisos for me, I'd accept that I'd fucked up and I'd be looking into private healthcare or other options.

Maybe it comes down to what people are told before they start changing their body, but then why are we letting them transition without proper procedures and thorough counselling first?

The best thing to do re laws and regulations like this is to ask the people going through it.

The best thing to do re laws and regulations is to consider the impact on the whole of society and ensure they are workable and consider and balance the rights of all involved.

So for example while for some self-Id laws and policies are 'just paperwork', for a woman they would potentially remove the right to identify, organise and have any legal protection of sex based rights. So the argument that it doesn't affect all women if they aren't trans is not correct. I do understand how it could be missed though if not thought through properly.

Loveyouradvice

I second your point about the rights of a baby. This seems to be totally forgotten about.

Society has a responsibility to the human rights of children & babies.

Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences and answer people's questions keyboard. It must be very difficult for you. I wish you all the best in your fertility journey.

Hmmm - while I do agree broadly with what Gorgon is saying, this is not at all the position Jellyfish is in and they are not demanding costly fertility treatment after having rendered themselves infertile by hormone treatment or surgery.

Jellyfish's partner has insufficient sperm after hormone treatment & will need a donor, but Jellyfish's OWN fertility is unrelated to being trans/hormone treatment (they have had none) and is due to PCOS and something as yet unidentified. This could happen to anyone and is no reason for denying fertility treatment. Surely acquiring donor sperm is relatively straightforward and can be done relatively cheaply privately compared to IVF etc.

Cumbersome but interesting situation for Keyboard

Shame the key question about how a desire to be pregnant can be reconciled with a desire to be male was dismissed. (Unless I missed it). There might be key issues there.

Find it odd that much of keyboard personal experience was presented as for others to learn (ask if you want to learn). Hope there was something positive for Keyboard on the Thread as well. I find dialogue as a two way enrichment experience, but one has to be opened to it.

Being a parent is not a right. Having a healthy body is not a right. Being pregnant is not a right. Having said that, I wish the NHS could satisfy people with those desires if money was no objection. Some people have to pay for cancer treatment. Mums, Dads, all people with small kids or kids about to settle for their own families, just to have a few more years. It's quite probable that taking cross sex hormones reduce life quality and life expectancy, that's why some parents are asking caution. So difficult to decide were money goes and for what.

I can see this being a huge issue in a few years.

Most of us at age 19ish do not want children. The NHS almost always refuse to sterilise at that age as its understood people change their minds.

But if someone chooses at 19 to go on hormones which render them infertile then 10/20 years later wish to start a family, what happens?

Even freezing sperm and eggs is not really an answer if one fully transitions.

"I know surrogacy can sometimes be an option, but the road is longer and legally trickier."

Any other considerations?
"The drug that helps trans women lactate is currently not legal in the UK but is in Canada."
In this line you are talking about your partner. Most women do not need drugs to help them lactate. There are some ? around the drugs that have been used in Canada to make TW lactate.
This statement is the sort of statement that is misleading. Anyone reading it would thiknk you meant women of the type who have breasts and usually lactate automatically when they have a baby. When this isn't possible then drugs can be provided in the UK I'm sure - I've read about it on here. So if you launch a campaign to get drugs for women who can't lactate after they have a baby made legal, it will be entirely confusing. Because, words have meanings.

"No. You will be the mother. You will be the person who supplied the ovum, who grew the baby in your womb, who gave birth. That is LITERALLY the definition of mother"

OK if these people aren't mothers then what is the definition? Is it about identifying as a mother? What will that mean in practice across the board for laws etc written around children? I see that a person's ID is sacrosanct and how others view them is immaterial. But, there are times when there are facts that need to be taken into account, like who gave birth, who provided sperm etc etc that outweigh self ID, and for very good reason.

I would be extremely keen to hear your definition of "mother".

On the fertility side, your situation is unremarkable, given that (if I understand your posts correctly) you have had no surgery or hormones. It's a bad situation, but is unremarakble. Many people with your body configuration - uterus bearers (? is that an OK term?) are in the same boat as you.

Your partner's situation is different. If the NHS will not provide treatment then you have considered sperm donation. OK. But you are looking ahead and saying you are being blocked from proceeding due to a. your own fertility issues (which are what they are and from your posts seems unrelated to your trans status) and b. because your partner may not be able to access drugs to induce lactation - why is this a blocker? FF may not be ideal but is the method of feeding really a blocker to having a baby?

Drugs used once in Canada to make a TW lactate:

here

"When a transgender woman told doctors at a hospital in New York that she wanted to breast-feed her pregnant partner’s baby, they put her on a regimen of drugs that included an anti-nausea medication licensed in Britain and Canada but banned in the United States."

If all that is required is the same hormones as women use to lactate, why multiple drugs used?

On the fertility thing,

A friend had cancer in his early 20s and the NHS (I assume actually, I never asked) froze and stored sperm for him.

The fertility issue here is complicated. The point that the trans advcocates are making is that for some, medical transition is necessary for mental health, to avoid serious adverse outcomes. For those with dysphpria (and let's face it, that's a small segment of the trans umbrella) I think and would be happy to support the same approach. That the treatment for a medical (psychological) condition is necessary, affects fertility, and so sperm can be frozen.

One question though. Trans advocates are working to get trans identities seen as NOT anything psychological or medical, so I'm not sure how this will work with accessign treatment.

For becunted people, it's more complex. When women have hysterectomies, that's a "no going back" type thing. Eggs can be frozen I think BUT then you'd need a surrogate supplied on the NHS and as this is the feminism board I feel quite comfortable saying we do NOT want to go there. If anyone want to discuss surrogacy (globally) let's have a thread - let me know I can start one. My views on this have hardened over the years and I'd be happy to have a conversation around it.

Anyway for becunted people I don't see a way around it. If you opt to get it all whipped out then it's game over, surely.

Fertility issues need to be made absolutely EXPLICIT to people wanting medical transition, and where they are not provdied on NHS / not possible this also needs to be EXPLICIT. I'd be surprised if it isnt' already TBH. This is where the treatment of young people including teenagers is a problem. Interestingly adult women (like late 20s and ?older loads of threads on here) who seek sterilisation are often told no because they might change their minds, yet with medical transition much younger people are deemed to be able to decide? Is it mainly one direction this happens though, and that direction involves people whose decisions society respects and who are provdied full bodily autonomy?

HOLD ON A MINUTE

"In some areas of the UK, sperm banking is available free on the NHS. In other areas you have to pay for it. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) recommend that sperm storage is available to men who might become infertile because of cancer treatment. But each area can choose whether they store sperm for free or whether you need to pay.

If you do need to pay, the cost varies from area to area. Collecting and freezing the samples can cost between £200 and £400. Then you pay about £300 a year to store them."

Is this offered as a paid service to men who medically transition? IF SO then there is no discrimination here.

Clearly they SHOULD be offering it to men who medically transition, a fee seems reasonable if other men who have treatments that may render them infertile can and do pay on the NHS in some (?many) parts of the country.

Sardine I thought that about hysterectomy.

My friend asked for one at 26 with 5 children. She had got pregnant while on the pill, coil and implant.

It took 2 years, when she was 28, to find a doctor to agree and refer her as she was viewed as too young initially. Two years of celibacy as they didnt date take the risk with any form of protection.

Yet a childless 18year old can choose to be sterilised? It makes no sense.

Jellyfish's partner has insufficient sperm after hormone treatment & will need a donor, but Jellyfish's OWN fertility is unrelated to being trans/hormone treatment (they have had none) and is due to PCOS and something as yet unidentified. This could happen to anyone and is no reason for denying fertility treatment.

I'm pretty sure this also applies in most cases to women in a couple where the male partner has had children previously. In many regions they are denied IVF I think? Agree in both cases this is wrong, whatever I think about the specific issues here.

Fertility issues need to be made absolutely EXPLICIT to people wanting medical transition, and where they are not provdied on NHS / not possible this also needs to be EXPLICIT

YY. Though I fear this could be framed as "conversion therapy".

The best thing to do re laws and regulations is to consider the impact on the whole of society and ensure they are workable and consider and balance the rights of all involved.

This ^

Yet a childless 18year old can choose to be sterilised? It makes no sense.

Because that 18 year old is either male or wanting to become male.
Silly woman don’t know their own minds and are simply there to provide babies.
One of the reasons I have seen for not allowing a woman who was pleading to be sterilised is that she might divorce and remarry and her new husband might want babies.

Of course that's where the brave new world could help women wanting to be sterilised - just say you're really a man, job done.