Employment law and pregnant men

[YesILikeItToo]

Does anyone know what the impact of including transmen in the legal definition of man would be in the context of workplace law? Would it erode rights arising from rules on indirect discrimination if men get pregnant too? Or would the fact that so few men would be involved leave these rights in place?

Indirect discrimination does not require 100% correlation between the discriminated feature and the protected characteristic. If I require that my employees are all 6 foot tall, for no good reason, then that is definitely sex discrimination even though Gwendolyn Christie (and Caitlin Jenner) is six foot two. If I require that my employees have naturally fair hair then that is racial discrimination even though some people from every race are albino.

So as I understand it discrimination on the basis of pregnancy, menstruation or whatever is still illegal because it discriminates against women even if 1% of men share that characteristic. And of course as noted above pregnancy is protected in its own right anyway.

Helpful, outside, so the relatively low numbers involved does make a difference.

So as I understand it discrimination on the basis of pregnancy, menstruation or whatever is still illegal because it discriminates against women even if 1% of men share that characteristic

0% of men share the characteristic of pregnancy or menstruation.

I was wondering where the 'you're manipulative cos you're trans' would start so I'm going to leave this thread now. Well done for ballsing it up for anyone else on this thread who would be interested in learning about this.

It didn't. But your second sentence, and flounce, are manipulative as fuck.

What concerns me is that it is entirely possible for gender to supercede sex in law which leads to a situation where it is completely bloody obvious which people might be capable of pregnancy because only one sex can do this, but 'all genders' are apparently capable, so when you discriminate against the female sex you aren't in fact committing unlawful discrimination.
You have to acknowledge sex to acknowledge sex discrimination.
'Gender' masks biological reality.
And as we all know, women are discriminated against because they are biologically female. Not because of the pronouns they choose.

Hi keyboardjellyfish

Both pregnancy and breastfeeding are protected characteristics independently of sex.

So getting a GRC shouldn’t prevent you from being protected.

You mentioned the discrimination you have faced, misogyny I think is a shared problem. In relation to the transgender discrimination - could you explain it and what could be done to improve things?

Hope this isn’t too intrusive - if you’d like.

** I have multiple fertility issues, have been TTC for a year with my partner who is a trans woman and we're already not elegible for NHS fertility treatment because the criteria didn't think of trans people at all and we are almost purposely left out.

The best thing to do re laws and regulations like this is to ask the people going through it*

Jellyfish this is interesting re health and fertility. Might be worth starting a thread on that topic.

OK just seen .the ... Y ou want to shit on me and start a fight.... flounce.

Shame, I was actually interested in what jellyfish thought the issues were

I don't understand how "trans fertility" is different to "fertility" tbh.

A trans man trying to conceive with their trans woman partner is just... a straight couple trying to conceive? And should therefore be able to access the same fertility treatment that is available to any infertile couple. I realise NHS fertility treatment is not exactly gold standard or consistent across areas but thats to be expected with the way things are in the NHS now

As above, I cant see how jellyfish and partners infertility differs from any other couples. Even if jelly ids as a man, it is female biology which will need investigating. I also dont understand how somebody rejecting womanhood could even consider bearing a child. Would love to hear about this jelly if you can face it.

FlyByNightSky has got it perfectly

I'm guessing if people have been taking hormonal medication, they might not be fertile anymore, so need more resources?

As a regular boring woman-and-man couple with infertility, we didn't get much support either. There aren't magic cures out there sadly.

Yes there is the medication aspect. But tbh that's just life. I have a friend who has had to make the very hard decision not to have children because of the medications she needs to take to maintain her quality of life and prevent her becoming dangerously mentally unwell. It's heartbreaking for her, as I'm sure it is for anyone who's essential medical treatment means that getting pregnant is harder/riskier/impossible.

Cross sex hormone therapy is obviously going to interfere with fertility. Perhaps this is part of the reason it should only be prescribed to people who are absolutely in possession of the full facts and implications and able to make an informed decision about all the potential effects on their body. Ie, never ever to teenagers.

I was also genuinely interested in the additional difficulties transmen face in seeking infertility treatment on the NHS. I hear so much about "trans rights are human rights", but have never come across a straight answer to the question of what rights transmen and transwomen do not currently have. I thought perhaps this might be one of them.

Right. I'm going to give this a go. I'm not interested in having a debate but this is also incredibly dear to my heart.

First I'll touch on the point re me carrying and giving birth as a man.

I know a lot of folks here really don't understand how I can ID as a man whilst wanting this so badly. I don't know how many of you know what it's like to want a baby more than anything in the world and how many of you can identify with struggling with infertility, but this is mumsnet so I'm sure some of you will be able to. There is literally no way to describe how much I want to carry and birth my own child. I know surrogacy can sometimes be an option, but the road is longer and legally trickier. I want to go on hormones one day (and get a hysto and top surgery too) and I figure, I've been born with a womb and a vagina and a vulva, so what's the point in wasting them if I deeply want to be a dad (yes I said dad, shock horror I will be my baby's father and my trans woman partner will be their mother).

So I'm going to use them (if they start working at some point) and then get rid of them. I am not the only trans person doing this- there are many trans men doing the same. My transness is not completely about my body and I am more than happy to embrace my parts as long as they're here. Whilst I don't particularly like them at the moment, there's no point in causing myself ultimate pain by concentrating on how much I deeply hate my body. I've been there, for years, and taught myself to love my body, whilst focusing on both the present (having them, learning to live with them and love them) and the future (at some point getting rid of them). This is mostly for my own sanity, to be honest.

Secondly I'll touch on the issues I talked about re trans fertility.

So I guess the main point is that my trans woman partner is infertile due to many years on hormones. Hormones for trans women don't always do that, but my partner's body decided to kill the sperm pretty quickly. Despite her going off hormones in the hope that the sperm would come back, it didn't work which means using a donor. However as I have multiple infertility issues of my own (not related to transness, just your run-of-the-mill PCOS mixed with some unexplained stuff), it means that the likelihood of us needing a clinic at some point soon is high. Which sucks. But what makes it so shite is that my partner, who has battled with dysphoria for a long bloody time is the reason we are not eligible for free fertility treatment. As my partner does not have a GRC yet, she is classed as 'male'. As she has taken hormones, she is classed as sterilising herself on purpose. As some of you may know this is a criteria for free fertility treatment and because of this we are automatically not eligible.

This is an oversight that the NHS hasn't thought of because they haven't thought of trans women whilst writing up criteras for fertility. This is also a barrier that harms not just our family but many families with trans women out there. It is a system flaw that needs to change. Trans folks deserve more to live in pits of dysphoria forever- we deserve happy lives, healthcare, families, housing and jobs free of discrimination. It is a medical form of discrimination against trans folks when trying to access reproductive care. It probably wasn't on purpose, but as it stands it may be the reason we have to wait longer for our baby because we now have to save for a clinic.

I experience the usual misogyny that I'm sure many people here can relate to re using healthcare at all, including fertility healthcare. It is shit and rampant. But also I experience ongoing transphobia- misgendering, intrusive questions regarding my transness from doctors (questions that have absolutely nothing to do with my PCOS or unexplained infertility stuff), and I was also taken off the list for the gender identity clinic for expressing the desire to carry and birth my baby because apparently I'm not man enough.

Regarding early birth issues, I will have to go down on my baby's BC as mother. I'm not, I'll be the father. Luckily my partner will be able to go down as parent. Another early birth thing: breastfeeding. The drug that helps trans women lactate is currently not legal in the UK but is in Canada. We have the option of my partner self-medding or not breastfeeding, which is crap. I believe one day it will be legal here but as it stands she probably won't get the opportunity to do something she badly wants to do as a new mother.

None of this is particularly new information, it is widespread info within trans communities and reproductive justice is just another battle for us that I wish we didn't have to fight because god, I just want my baby.

So yeah. I think I've covered everything. I'm happy to answer questions but I'm going to stress that I will quite happily ignore any jibes at my partner and I, any shitty 'you're not a man' comments, anything about my reproductive system. I know what I have and I know who I am. I am confident within myself as a trans man and I am not here to debate that.

Ooh and back in the room. [Takes seat and waits for Eresh to accuse tans man of mansplaining. This should be good].

Hi Keyboard

Thanks for replying. The problem with your partner having been deemed to have self sterilised for the purposes of fertility treatment is I think indirect discrimination against transgender people. Have you raised this as a concern? I think you have recourse to get that decision overturned.

Yes we've raised it and no it was not overturned. We are not the only people experiencing this unfortunately.

But what makes it so shite is that my partner, who has battled with dysphoria for a long bloody time is the reason we are not eligible for free fertility treatment. As my partner does not have a GRC yet, she is classed as 'male'. As she has taken hormones, she is classed as sterilising herself on purpose. As some of you may know this is a criteria for free fertility treatment and because of this we are automatically not eligible.

The fact that your partner has deliberately sterilised themselves is the issue. Not whether or not they have a GRC.

All you are suggesting is that by getting a GRC and saying that they are female, you would be able to conceal the fact that their sterility was caused by hormones that they chose to take, that are known to cause infertility.

I believe one day it will be legal here but as it stands she probably won't get the opportunity to do something she badly wants to do as a new mother.

You would be able to breastfeed your baby, as the person with the body which is designed to gestate, bear, and breastfeed babies.

Call yourself whatever you want, but the fact is that you are complaining about multiple aspects of a situation that are entirely caused by you and your partner trying to take on the role, in relation to reproduction, that you cannot do, and in your partner's case, having deliberately sterilised themselves.

I don't care if you are interested in debating with anyone or not. But your post shows just how messed up this whole thing is.

Any other interesting questions from people who genuinely want to learn?

Keyboard

Did you take it through the courts?

Not yet @Elle although we are exploring options whilst continuing to try with a donor at the moment.

Who gave birth.

Adoptive mothers don't give birth. But they are legally recognised as mother.

keyboard.
Forgive me if I’m being very nïeve about this but but won’t you and your partner be treated like any other couple given that one of you has testes and one a uterus and ovaries? Granted your partner has problems related to having taken hormones but the same could be true of many other couples who have had say, cancer treatment, and been left infertile.