Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

[invisibleoldwoman]

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

The sad part here is there are some women who would like to put some of us who's opinions they don't like in a box - shut us up and see us bend to their will. I'm sorry, I didn't come onto FWR to gain a fan club and I won't lose sleep over people's opinions of me, I also won't shut up (sorry I'm not sorry). I do very genuinely feel it's sad that that box mentality still exists.

Don't worry, Lass has always thought the GC cause was a bit silly and exaggerated. Her trans unpeak is about as genuine as my appreciation of Shon Faye's comedy

Gosh- I do love it when feminists not only tell women what they ought to think but even what they are actually thinking.

Nope- FWR talked me up the trans peak and then back down again.

There are posters on this and recent trans threads I do not want to be associated with or give any indication that I endorse or support their views

When I see things on here I don't want be be associated with I just stay off the thread.

disingenuous much

It's pretty obvious to anyone who reads the thread. Well perhaps unless one wants to deliberately misunderstand.

Just wanted to say that Lilliam has already exploded with rage on Twitter about this letter to the Guardian.

It's pretty obvious to anyone who reads the thread. Well perhaps unless one wants to deliberately misunderstand

Nothing misunderstood, deliberate or otherwise but that is a classic move to belittle any view points you disagree with.

When I see things on here I don't want be be associated with I just stay off the thread

As I said I generally avoid trans threads but then that means I hardly ever express an opinion on the issue.

FWR is full of different views, despite the claims that it is an echo chamber.

Yes, it is.

I think this thread has seen most contributors expressing the same views on the FWR spectrum that they have always expressed. It doesn't seem any different to me from that angle - it's just got a few more slanging matches in than the average!

Nope- FWR talked me up the trans peak and then back down again.

I always had you down as someone who could make your own mind up. (And i don't mean that as a dig)

There's loads of threads/posts on here I don't agree with, but I either report and/or don't get involved.

No one is going to agree with someone on everything, and even within an issue, there is going to be disagreements. We aren't the official 'anti self id' lobby, we don't have to show an official unblemished front.

FWR is full of different views, despite the claims that it is an echo chamber

Really? On trans issues? Seriously ? That certainly is not my perception.

Lass, you've said yourself that you hide the majority of trans threads?

I know my opinions are different to many here but aren't unique.

A few posters gave thanks which was then followed by an ugly pile on posters proclaiming they will get no thanks from them.

I think it just highlights one of the main divisions on this board.

Some feminists who accept only transitioned women (m2f, transwomen) that have been through a process as women, and welcome them in women only spaces. But are against self-id.

Another group of radical separatist feminists who are not only against self-id but they do not accept any trans women (or 'TIMs' as they would say) as women and do not accept them in women-only spaces at all, no matter what process they have been through.

Maybe not always as distinct but that is how I interpret it.

And there are feminist who are fine with self id.

Oh really on this board? Haven't noticed that myself but only been here 2 or 3 weeks. There seems to have been so many name changes lately I don't even know who is who anymore.

I would say that there is no such thing as a consensus on this board. The range of opinions is very broad, hence why the debate is so passionate and lengthy.

Anyone trying to pretend that all of FWR speaks with one voice and in a particular way has their eyes and ears shut. Or is being deliberately goady.

There are loads of posters on here I mostly agree with, or rarely agree with or completely disagree with. That’s the way it’s supposed to be.

Yes that makes sense. There is a very vocal element though that is getting the attention from the public and that leads to Mumsnet being labelled as transphobic. All the less inflammatory side, or trans-positive feminism (if there's much here) doesn't get reported.

I think it just highlights one of the main divisions on this board.

Doesn't that in itself prove that FWR is NOT an echo chamber? My understanding of echo chamber is somewhere where only one opinion is expressed over and over. Kind of like groups on twitter who use mass block lists to avoid seeing any opinion that deviates in any way from what they want...

Well, that's the problem with getting you views of the site from edited highlights from other sites with a vested interest in getting women to shut the fuck up.

And women can be as vocal as they like here.

I don't think anyone here was saying they can't.

"Here are some of the main divisions on this board, which at the same time is an echo chamber" is pretty damn funny.

Agree with @Ekphrais and @JustABrokenDoll

Anything that chips away at the controlling TRA narrative is fine by me, and no doubt this took guts.

This takes nothing away frommy many feminist sheroes, who have sobe and continue to do amazing work for women

Not awful posts @Lass. The truth. Reality.

Yes, the message about sexual fetishism needs to get out.

But another message that the letter conveys is that transsexualism is a real and valid thing. The distinction between real and valid transsexualism and invalid opportunistic transgenderism in the letter is couched such that transsexuals are posited as having meaningfully become women, or at the very least that the accommodation of transsexuals into women's spaces does not in any meaningful or legitimate way compromise or harm women's rights.

NOWHERE does the letter state that all these signatories are men and will forever remain so. In fact, by referring to 'male-bodied' individuals who are not entitled to access to women's spaces and signposting these individuals as included within invalid and opportunistic transgenderism, the letter cleverly creates the position that transsexuals are no longer male bodied and are no longer to be considered as men.

One of the messages that this letter sends out is that it is possible to meaningfully change your sex, by undergoing the appropriate procedures.

This is not a positive step. This is part of the gaslighting.

And there are feminist who are fine with self id

And they get very short shrift on here.

There is a very vocal element though that is getting the attention from the public and that leads to Mumsnet being labelled as transphobic. All the less inflammatory side, or trans-positive feminism (if there's much here) doesn't get reported

There is a very vocal element on here. I started hiding trans threads because frankly I did find much of it transphobic. That thread about the theoretical trans bra fitter on M&S for example.

Wtf some people said thanks, some people said we don't owe thanks, big deal, what is this argument even about? Deliberate sowing of discord by TRA.

• TheUterati Not awful posts @Lass*. The truth. Reality. Yes, the message about sexual fetishism needs to get out. But another message that the letter conveys is that transsexualism is a real and valid thing**

Kind of what one would expect it being written and signed by transsexuals n all...

I was around at the time of the Sweary incident, read all the posts here and those linked to on Angels and didn't get it either. Perhaps that's me being autistic

No, I didn't get it either. I don't know who sweary is 'in real life' and as of about a month ago I started stepping back from FWR partly because I was getting the strong impression that there was an odd subtext, perhaps from people who were connected 'in real life' or on the twitersphere that I didn't understand and wasn't part of (and didn't want to be). I also can't remember the transexual posters asking for thanks and I also don't see the point in thanking them as such, but congratulating them on a good letter is different. I do see them more as allies than as enemies and I am happy to read their posts here. I suspect there will be issues of disagreement but the vitriol is puzzling me (perhaps because I don't understand the subtext and the behind the scenes stuff).