Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter in The Guardian from Transexuals saying self ID not the answer

512 replies

invisibleoldwoman · 04/05/2018 18:20

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/04/standing-up-for-transsexual-rights?CMP=share_btn_fb

OP posts:
LangCleg · 05/05/2018 16:21

Sorry I'll post that again without the patronising tone. See I am learning so much from you!

LOL! Good goad!

Supermatch, we have been in and out and up and down and through the difference between social, cultural and legal environments - and also the specifics of current and proposed legal frameworks - a great many times before. I'm not going to do it again. Indeed, it is unlikely I will respond at all to you in future, particularly on lengthy threads when you suddenly appear and cite me by name in order to rehash disagreements we have had before. I regard it as goady on your part. Of course, goading may well not be your intention at all but either way - do feel free to continue to post whatever you want wherever you want, even though I am unlikely to respond to you further.

Have a good weekend!

Pratchet · 05/05/2018 16:23

Supermatch: gender and sex are not interchangeable.

It is a legal fiction.

R0wantrees · 05/05/2018 16:26

Christine Burns comments here in 2013:
"Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press". In popular culture, the activists became more forthcoming in their attempts to increase popular understanding of trans issues"

(It's a significant article, I think, in understanding the history behind the fight for rights for people in the UK who are transgender)
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

SupermatchGame · 05/05/2018 16:29

Lang it wasn't meant to be goady at all. I'm not the only one who has posted in anger or been overly provocative in the past. Being on here has caused me to reflect on many things, including my own language

If I see information that I disagree with or that I think is wrong or unjust I can still contribute even if it is the same information to you. Maybe it is in response to the same information being posted? It doesn't really matter to me anymore if you respond or not.

Thanks and have a good weekend too.

SupermatchGame · 05/05/2018 16:32

It is a legal fiction.

It is a legal fact. You don't agree with it - that doesn't make reality fiction.

Pratchet · 05/05/2018 16:34

It is a legal fiction. It involves being treated as a woman under the law.

There is no legal definition of woman or man so the law does not define anyone with a GRC as the opposite sex.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 05/05/2018 16:35

It is a fact that a fiction has been made legal.

Pratchet · 05/05/2018 16:36

And let's face it there's no definition of woman that isn't by reproductive role. There's no point even arguing that there is.

Pratchet · 05/05/2018 16:38

It is a fact that a fiction has been made legal

Lol

SupermatchGame · 05/05/2018 16:40

But this does impact on women, that's just a fact. They don't have to care about it, but men using women's facilities, joining their groups etc. absolutely impacts women. The fact that they don't get this is a loud and clear indication of male socialisation.

You don't speak for all women or even most women. When women have different opinions to you, you dismiss them as not 'getting it' or victims of 'socialisation'. That sounds more like male socialisation to me.

She said some women aren't happy to accept this.

She said some women here are happy to regard post-SRS transsexuals as "honorary" women, others are not.

I was pointing out that the law regards them as female. It's not a matter of honour. Human rights aren't an honour or a courtesy.

You can't mandate women being happy about the situation. I'll decide what I'm happy and comfortable with, thanks all the same.

I'm not trying to. And ditto.

Pratchet · 05/05/2018 16:43

It doesn't matter if we don't speak for all women. Our boundaries and our consent are human rights. Youvso not speak for all trans'women'.

ChattyLion · 05/05/2018 16:46

Agreed GRA allowing legal sex as recorded on your documents is self evidently a legal fiction. There are others of these- like ‘child of the marriage’ legal assumption and sometimes these can be useful and protect people. They all respond to a social context. I don’t know the history but it sounds like a part of the pro-GRA argument (or how it was articulated publicly/via lobbying) back in the day was because people couldn’t be in same-sex marriages back then.

whathaveiforgottentoday · 05/05/2018 16:47

I think it's a good letter and a brave move. It's asking for exactly what most women have been asking for ... a debate. Which is why i was surprised to come back to the thread today to see lots of arguing and unpleasant posts. Nobody is perfect but this was a good letter. Can't we just say that and leave it at that.
I've been very impressed and educated by many of the regular posters on the feminists page, but this thread has lowered my opinion of some of you.

Wanderabout · 05/05/2018 16:50

Bizarre conflation of belief/current law/people's acceptance/human rights.

What do you mean by human rights? Would you include the right to define and organise oneself in law and society based on biological sex?

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 16:55

then has to come and sheepishly apologise to Sweary. LOL

I was not apologising to sweary. I find her posts on trans related threads unpleasant and as I said hers and other's posts in the last couple of weeks have pushed me into anti- peak trans territory.

As for "Lol" , oh dear me.

OnTheList · 05/05/2018 16:56

Yes agree. Self ID without safeguards could allow men into women's spaces and that will put women, including trans women at risk.

Self-ID is as disastrous for transsexual people as it is for female people really.

Ignoring the fact that when businesses adopt a selfID model, the very men that transwomen are using the womens to avoid can just follow them right in too, the behaviour of rabid transactivists and their ridiculous demands (that seem to be getting worse by the day) IS bringing on a bit of an 'anti trans' sentiment. I have noticed a shift in tone among friends when discussing this topic recently. Because transctivists are getting louder and louder, and more OTT and blatantly misogynistic in their behaviour. They are making things worse for transsexual people, no doubt about that. As are these 'transtrenders'...with their lady dicks and bullying of lesbian people.

I understand transsexual people just wanting to keep their heads down. but it will be them who have to bear the brunt of the public backlash, which is going to be coming before long. At that stage, transactivists and 'transgender' people will just step back, maybe stop yelling about being women and such. But, transsexual people cannot do this as this is actually their lives. They are (on the whole) not doing it just to be cunts to women, they are not actively wanting to roll back womens rigts (like TRAs/MRAs), they just want to get on with their lives in peace. I have yet to see a transsexual person say that they support 'selfID'. Why on earth would they? They can easily get a diagnosis for sex dysphoria, as they have sex dysphoria. Even the 'cost' issue thats brought up a lot is not really an issue, as the cost is means tested, so you only have to pay if you can afford to. The only people self ID will benefit are pisstakers, and perverts. Also quite concerning is that it was proposed by the Tories, who very much want to slash NHS costs. And I do think that at least part of their motivation was to stop the NHS from 'treating' sex dysphoria. if its not an illness, there is no reason to dedicate NHS funding to it is there? Which will clearly detriment transsexual people, who do often need to transition.

Transsexual people can see this as much as women can. But it will be transsexual people, and women, who bear the brunt of this, if it does go through. I am starting to be hopeful that it really has been kicked into the long grass. But it still baffles me when I see people saying they support self ID, and never being able to give an actual reason for this? Besides 'we should just be nice'. But..being nice is all well and good, even a small bit of thought into the topic though throws up concerns that need to be talked about, not shut down.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 16:59

but this thread has lowered my opinion of some of you

Me too. Not just this thread but over the last 10 days or so. I'm fully aware that will not matter in the slightest to the posters concerned who will continue to bask in the glow of being right.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 17:06

It's starting to look like some real naval gazing pettiness rather than the genuine concerns we really have

Yes.

Not being grateful is not the same as thinking they're wrong to speak up

Did any of them ask you to be grateful? Don't think so , yet that hasn't stopped several posters proclaiming they won't give any thanks.

Baroquehavoc · 05/05/2018 17:16

Did any of them ask you to be grateful? Don't think so , yet that hasn't stopped several posters proclaiming they won't give any thanks.

Why should I give thanks to something that wasn't done for my benefit? Yes, well done for doing something, but why thanks?

Pratchet · 05/05/2018 17:16

Did any of them ask you to be grateful? Don't think so , yet that hasn't stopped several posters proclaiming they won't give any thanks.

What on earth are you on about? Lots of people are full of thanks. Others said there's no reason to be grateful. Someone interpreted that as saying the TS were wrong. Hence my comment. It's called sequential conversation.

ReluctantCamper · 05/05/2018 17:22

Lass, are you seriously saying that because some people whose tone you don't like are anti self-ID, you are going to do a full 180 and become pro self ID?

Because that's what all this peak-anti trans stuff sounds like.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 17:25

What on earth are you on about?

Ditto. None of the letter writers were looking for thanks. A few posters gave thanks which was then followed by an ugly pile on posters proclaiming they will get no thanks from them.

The hypocrisy of all the hand wringing I have seen on here that trans extremists are dangerous to transexuals and the vitriol being posted by some posters when transexuals do speak up is breathtaking.

Ereshkigal · 05/05/2018 17:26

Don't worry, Lass has always thought the GC cause was a bit silly and exaggerated. Her trans unpeak is about as genuine as my appreciation of Shon Faye's comedy.

LassWiADelicateAir · 05/05/2018 17:33

Lass, are you seriously saying that because some people whose tone you don't like are anti self-ID, you are going to do a full 180 and become pro self ID?

There are posters on this and recent trans threads I do not want to be associated with or give any indication that I endorse or support their views.

I tend to avoid (hide ) the majority of trans threads anyway. I think there is a lot of scaremongering and whipping up of fear. I don't yet have a fully formed opinion on self ID as it happens.

Baroquehavoc · 05/05/2018 17:34

The hypocrisy of all the hand wringing I have seen on here that trans extremists are dangerous to transexuals and the vitriol being posted by some posters when transexuals do speak up is breathtaking.

FWR is full of different views, despite the claims that it is an echo chamber. I think it's unfair to use something that some women say against other women.

Swipe left for the next trending thread