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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

MNHQ Deletion Policy

935 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 17:03

Earlier today the Trans Park Run thread was deleted in its entirety because SOME posts alleging cheating were deemed to be 'not in the spirit' of MN.

We have a thread about that running.

I have just been deleted on the Heather Peto thread for posting this:

"Bless..."

A post intended to be mildly dismissive.

That was deleted for breaking talk guidelines.

Give me a fucking break MNHQ.

"Bless..." gets a deletion!??!?!

TRA really have got you on a short chain, haven't they?

OP posts:
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ErrolTheDragon · 30/04/2018 18:09

I don't doubt that some transwomen are far more feminine than some women. The dictionary definitions of 'womanly' seem to be about conforming to feminine stereotypes, so Iwill may be correct in those terms.

KnittinKitten · 30/04/2018 18:10

You have no objective? Really? What’s your username again? Grin

ZenNudist · 30/04/2018 18:10

Im being brave wading into this quagmire but "more womanly" is a joke. More womanly than someone who has actually carried a child in their womb. Womanly presumably referring to stereotypical "female" body characteristics. So what does this mean? Bigger boobs? Better legs? More make up? The mind boggles.

busyboysmum · 30/04/2018 18:12

@SupermatchGame I think you are confusing sex and gender.

It's not possible to change your biological sex. Legally or otherwise.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 18:12

I have no interest in how well people do or don't conform to stereotypes, and think it's sad to see women who do on a feminist board.

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 30/04/2018 18:13

Was just expressing how I am currently feeling given the relentless attacks on women's freedom of speech I am witnessing.

I'm so bored of the whole centering men's feelings thing.

And I am so bored of ignorant, sexist people who are prone to magical thinking and censoriousness trying to appoint themselves as the thought police.

CadyHeron · 30/04/2018 18:13

Now you’re all pointing out to me that my daughter who happens to be a transwoman is a man. What a lovely bunch you are.

Sad Don't tar us all, I'm a little bit sickened on this thread and the other one too. I'm usually "on the other side" so to speak,so feels strange for me.
Self ID and trans are separate things, and it's clear that some really do have an issue with ALL trans, if you notice though MN have been deleting posts that have crossed lines though.

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 30/04/2018 18:14

Sorry that wasn't 'at' you

SupermatchGame · 30/04/2018 18:15

busy I'm not - they are used interchangeably in the GRA.

Sex is now a category that can be assigned legally. You can change the sex of the hormones circulating in your body. But yes - a trans woman is not of course biologically identical to a non trans woman. I don't think anyone is saying that. But we digress....

ReluctantCamper · 30/04/2018 18:15

but biologically SupermatchGame, and therefore very much in reality, no, humans cannot change sex.

If it helps you, let's put it this way:

A member of the sex class that produces small mobile gametes cannot become a member of the sex class that produces large, immobile gametes and is capable of gestating young.

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 30/04/2018 18:18

You can change the sex of the hormones circulating in your body.

No you can't. Sex hormones don't have a sex, chromosomes do.

Both women and men produce all sex hormones.

KnittinKitten · 30/04/2018 18:18

a trans woman is not of course biologically identical to a non trans woman.

A non trans woman?? Wtaf??

IWillReportAllTransphobicPosts · 30/04/2018 18:18

Cady and others who are able to discuss this subject with respect to both sides I apologise. I know it isn’t everyone.

Datun · 30/04/2018 18:18

My dd is for more womanly than I ever was at her age! This kind of disrespect has to stop.

This kind of thing has to stop. It's regressive, deceitful and highly sexist.

Unless someone who has been born male has somehow managed to acquire ovaries, fallopian tubes, a uterus and a vagina, they cannot be, in any way, shape or form, womanly. The word womanly has a very specific meaning which is 'relating to characteristics of being a woman'. The characteristics of being a woman are biological.

Do not, please, perpetuate the idea that the characteristics of being a woman are anything else.

You may not like that IWillReportAllTransphobicPosts. And, of course, I understand why.

But, if this debate is going to change the meaning of words and decide that womanly has nothing to do with an adult human female, then I'm afraid you're going to have to get used to not liking what people say.

Women have been fighting, tooth and nail, for centuries to disabuse society of the idea that there is a certain way to be one, other than biology.

We're not going to stop now.

busyboysmum · 30/04/2018 18:18

That's why the GRA has created a legal fiction and requires amending IMO. If it too is getting sex and gender confused.

SupermatchGame · 30/04/2018 18:19

thought police

No one is saying that! We can all think what we like. It's what we say and do that matters. Posts get deleted not thoughts.

AngryAttackKittens · 30/04/2018 18:20

Well, we have someone on another thread insisting that trans women need gynecology exams so no, I'm not sure that everyone does understand that a post-transition trans woman is not identical to a person born female. And we have years of TRA propaganda to thank for that.

Another regular says her child informed her that it was possible to get a chromosome transplant. People believe some seriously weird, unscientific things.

Ereshkigal · 30/04/2018 18:20

Self ID and trans are separate things, and it's clear that some really do have an issue with ALL trans, if you notice though MN have been deleting posts that have crossed lines though.

No they are not. Your understanding of what "trans" means is extremely poor. It means any male who claims to be a woman. What is the difference?

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 30/04/2018 18:22

Posts get deleted not thoughts.

Policing what words people can and can't use and policing which aspects of reality people are not allowed to name or speak about is as good as telling them what they can and can't think.

SupermatchGame · 30/04/2018 18:23

You're basically devaluing the rights of a previously marginalised and oppressed group. Dismissing them as a fiction is like trying to turn back their emancipation by decades. I can't see any government wanting to do that. Not a democratic one anyway.

BarrackerBarmer · 30/04/2018 18:23

Sex matters.

Even the most committed trans rights activist insists upon their right to treat the sexes differently, when it suits them.
Even you, IWillReportAllTransphobicPosts need to know the sex (and not the identity of people) sometimes.

Not all identities can or should be claimed by anyone who wants them. Some identities should be rooted in hard fact, not in feelings or beliefs. They should only be used by those who objectively possess the characteristics such identities describe.

Instead of ignoring this hypocrisy, and instead of censoring women for discussing when recognition of their sex matters to them, join in the debate and be part of the solution. Because sex exists, it cannot change and it matters. The law can pretend otherwise, and some people can pretend otherwise, but you cannot make everyone pretend to accept what they know is a lie.

IWillReportAllTransphobicPosts · 30/04/2018 18:24

Datun and anyone else questioning me on my ‘more womanly’

If you look at the context I was referring to trans women being described as ‘male bodied’. In that context I meant that my dd does not have a male body. In fact very few people know she is even trans. A lot of her own friends are jealous of the way she looks. Calling transwomen ‘male bodied’ is offensive.

I am aware of stereotypes and sexism, I wasn’t simply referring to how she looks from the outside.

IWillReportAllTransphobicPosts · 30/04/2018 18:25

was

ScrappyScrap · 30/04/2018 18:25

I am constantly seeing trans women referred to as ‘male bodied’. Really? My dd is for more womanly than I ever was at her age!

What does this mean? In what way were you less womanly? Please try to avoid obvious sexism when you respond.

Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).

As to this nonsense^ I can think of several purposes for which one cannot legally change their sex. Imagine telling the hospital that you're a woman now so they better get you pregnant. You've brought your own sperm sample.

IWillReportAllTransphobicPosts I'm guessing you'd just as happily have sex with a man and his vagina and a woman and her penis?

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 30/04/2018 18:25

a previously marginalised and oppressed group.

Are you talking about males?

Because as far as I am aware they are born into the oppressor class who extract the labour of females.