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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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spontaneousgiventime · 02/05/2018 11:45

Everytime TIM come into FWR and patiently explain why women are wrong, I see more and more differences in our biology and experiences.

Aint that the truth. Trans people love to come here to tell us how wrong we are. Hmm

NatLuc · 02/05/2018 11:46

@ICJump - it was a facetiously worded response to a ludicrous statement, it was not meant to be watertight. Of course I understand that uncontrollable desire is not the only (nor main reason) that men assault, rape, intimidate or generally impose themselves inappropriate on women.

@Datum - I do listen, and I do understand that I am different to natal women, with some different issues and struggles but does that, therefore, mean that the experiences I have, with respect to being trans female are therefore not just 'worth less' but also worthless despite many of them being the same as a natal woman? I do not think so..

I do not think my lack of affinity to the issues natal woman face is the issue, I think it is a lack of understanding from many users on the likes of MN that is the problem for not seeing that there are clear parallels between the issues faced and that instead of dividing and shrinking away from trans issues, natal women should helping to protect us. You have the experience and the numbers to do it. But I will not accept that because I am trans I am in anyway inferior to natal women. I accept I am not a 'true woman' in a biological sense but in a colloquial setting I am. THAT is why I will interchangeably refer to myself as both a trans woman and a woman depending on the conversational setting.

As for moving goalposts, I think that is a bit much. I have in one message said if anything trans woman (of a more slight build once on HRT) are at a disadvantage and in another stated that there is no measurable advantage or disadvantage, however this is a simple case of playing devils advocate and proposing a line of thinking to be able to discuss things from several viewpoints. As I said in my opening message, I only have the data I have collected on myself and my own experiences to draw from because there is so little peer-reviewed data on the matter.

Apologies if I lead you to believe that I was picking and choosing my narrative. The only narrative I do have is that in MY personal case, as a trans woman, I do not see an issue, but as I have said in a reply to another user I can understand why if there was a pre-HRT and still at their male prime trans woman competing then I can see this as a huge issue.

I do have a problem with the language consistently used, however. I am not a man. I am male. Big difference. I have been very careful (I think?) to not confuse woman with female (except with the exception of where Parkrun is concerned with it's M and F categorisation) whenever I have been discussing biological/physiological functions so why are most users not as insightful? There is a huge difference between a trans woman and a man physiologically in MOST cases. I understand it is a petty thing to pick out as all you and others had to do was type 'male' instead but again, an important distinction to make.

If 'Men' started claiming trans status just to be able to run in the women's category then I would absolutely be with you on the side of 'that is not right' but saying trans women are just men looking to run as women is disingenuous and simply not true.

Lichtie · 02/05/2018 11:51

Shotsfired. How is that any different to a feminist or others voicing their opinion from the other side. They/we/I/you do not speak on behalf of all women.
Most people pay no attention to either side.

FloraFox · 02/05/2018 11:53

natluc

I meant that it is a loaded slur that was manufactured in the first instance to imply that we are simply delusional. It was not an attack on your personally but the acronym itself.

This is wrong. It was coined to provide a term that could be used as an alternative to "transwoman" or "male to female" or "male to trans" because those terms are not accurate.

I was also not referring to this thread with respect to the sexual predator comment. As I stated in my opening message I have lurked MN for some time as it has been a bit of a guilty pleasure and some threads do draw parallels to trans women as being nothing more than predators. But hey... Trans woman take Cyproterone Acetate to control testosterone.. sex offenders are made to take it to control their urges... ergo.. trans women must be predators because they take the same incredibly powerful and toxic drug right?

You made that up. I don't believe anyone on MN has ever said that. It would be a great screenshot for TRAs to show transphobia on MN - like the s.28 screenshot.

I joined MN and started commenting because I got sick of being bashed by people that have absolutely no right to judge me or get to make the decision as to whether I fit the gender role of 'woman' or not. Yes, I am a trans woman, but trans women live and breath the role of woman. That is an important distinction to make I feel?

This is a nice illustration that (a) you do not care what women think, you are barging in regardless and (b) you think being a woman is about fitting into a gender role.

LangCleg · 02/05/2018 11:55

As a general note rather than a specific one - the more words people expend putting their rights and needs ahead of mine, the less likely I am to be willing to compromise. I find lengthy appeals to female socialisation counterproductive. And infuriating.

spontaneousgiventime · 02/05/2018 11:55

NatLuc the experiences I have, with respect to being trans female are therefore not just 'worth less' but also worthless despite many of them being the same as a natal woman? I do not think so..

You understand periods, contraception, fertility, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, birth injuries, loss of pelvic floor muscle, menopause? I would suggest not, so how your experiences are the same as mine is laughable.

Women are not just make-up, heels and hair flicking. Have you had to work full time and then take care of children and a home, while balancing a budget? With all due respect you have no idea what it is like to be a woman. Putting on a dress and claiming victimhood is not how it works.

ICJump · 02/05/2018 11:56

s between the issues faced and that instead of dividing and shrinking away from trans issues, natal women should helping to protect us.

When was the last time you worked toward improved maternity care, breastfeeding support, maternity rights, reduction of pay gap, woman being able to access police protection?

Stop making woman do more work? We are flat chat trying to improve the lives of those around us already without doing more shit for males.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 12:00

I do not think my lack of affinity to the issues natal woman face is the issue, I think it is a lack of understanding from many users on the likes of MN that is the problem for not seeing that there are clear parallels between the issues faced and that instead of dividing and shrinking away from trans issues, natal women should helping to protect us. You have the experience and the numbers to do it.

Listen, mate, women kind of have our hands full protecting ourselves (and girls). We really don't have the bandwidth to take on the protection of another group too, nor should we be expected to do so just because you'd like us to.

Just because many women on this site are mothers does not mean that they are your mother. The attitude you're displaying here reeks of male entitlement.

spontaneousgiventime · 02/05/2018 12:00

natal women should helping to protect us.

I will fight to protect my daughters and granddaughters I will NOT fight to protect men!

OvaHere · 02/05/2018 12:02

instead of dividing and shrinking away from trans issues, natal women should helping to protect us.

So male people telling female people what they should be doing for the benefit of male people.

Seriously you have no idea how you come across do you?

Feminism is for females and we have no good reason to centre males who have a trans identity anymore than we do to centre gay men.

Lichtie · 02/05/2018 12:04

'Women are not just make-up, heels and hair flicking. Have you had to work full time and then take care of children and a home, while balancing a budget? With all due respect you have no idea what it is like to be a woman.'

Wow, what nonsense.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 12:04

I find lengthy appeals to female socialisation counterproductive. And infuriating.

Is there something about being male and "identifying" as a woman that removes a person's ability to edit and requires their every comment to be 10 times as long as anyone else's while containing very little content other than "I'm more important than you so let's talk about how you can center me"? FFS.

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 12:08

Why the need for "listen mate" type comments? Can you imagine if you got a "listen, love" like for like type comment back.
FGS.

aaarrrggghhhh · 02/05/2018 12:09

do understand that I am different to natal women, with some different issues and struggles but does that, therefore, mean that the experiences I have, with respect to being trans female are therefore not just 'worth less' but also worthless despite many of them being the same as a natal woman? I do not think so..

No one is saying they are worth less. The point is that they are DIFFERENT.

natal women should helping to protect us. You have the experience and the numbers to do it.

Because it is the role of women to serve and look after men presumably.

I am very happy for and supportive of transpeople to have the particular issues which impact them addressed. I am very unhappy for women to be expected to do this for them and indeed compromise womens rights in the process.

NatLuc · 02/05/2018 12:11

@FloraFox - We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.. Because the fact that the word 'trans' is used in 'trans man' and 'trans woman' is enough of a way of identifying and acknowledging that someone was not born of that sex. Deliberately calling these people men and woman is insulting.

It was not a statement that was ever typed (to my knowledge) however that is the impression that I get from a lot of the attitudes. Yes perhaps it is a bitter interpretation but it is born from the view that I am 'a man in a skirt'. Which is an equally bitter view point.

I do not think that joining discourse is barging in. Trans woman had little to no representation in this thread and given that running is something I have taken up again I felt that I could offer a viewpoint on something that affects me directly and my ability to live as normally as a woman as I possibly can.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 12:12

Cady, I've already make it quite clear that I will not be adjusting the way I write in order to better suit your personal preferences.

LangCleg · 02/05/2018 12:18

As a general note rather than a specific one - the more words people expend putting their rights and needs ahead of mine, the less likely I am to be willing to compromise. I find lengthy appeals to female socialisation counterproductive. And infuriating.

I should also add, as a general note rather than a specific one, that I equally find lengthy lists of demands indicative of male entitlement.

More words ≠ more persuasive.

FloraFox · 02/05/2018 12:19

I do not think my lack of affinity to the issues natal woman face is the issue, I think it is a lack of understanding from many users on the likes of MN that is the problem for not seeing that there are clear parallels between the issues faced and that instead of dividing and shrinking away from trans issues, natal women should helping to protect us.

The staggering fucking cheek of this. This is Mumsnet, not YourMumsnet. We don't lack understanding, we lack compliance and we don't need you telling us that we should be protecting you. You've shown no common cause with women in your posts.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 12:21

And I should add that constantly pestering other commenters with demands that they phrase things in a way that's more pleasing to you starts to veer into harassment territory if you do it consistently enough.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 12:22

This is Mumsnet, not YourMumsnet.

And FloraFox wins the thread.

Baroquehavoc · 02/05/2018 12:27

Yep, flora wins.

natal women should helping to protect us.

This must be a wind up.

OnTheList · 02/05/2018 12:28

I believe trans-identified-male and trans-identified-female were first used on here so that all of the many many different trans identities were easier to 'lump together'. Like, non-binary, gender queer, trans'gender' etc. Also as many people think a transwoman is a transman, and vice versa. So it makes it clearer.

I still use transwoman and transman tbh though, habit I guess. Though I do also try to separate transgender and transsexual. As I think transsexual people should not be under the ridiculous 'transgender umbrella'. And the (admittedly few) transsexual people I know have all started reclaiming transsexual anyway, after seeing whats going on recently.

Welcome NatLuc also Smile

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 12:32

Reminds me of one time when my landlord sent someone over to fix my broken washing machine and out of the blue he very smugly said "I take 2 sugars in my tea". Which I had not offered to make him.

I told him not to forget to remind the people at the cafe up the road if he stopped there on his way out.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 02/05/2018 12:33

natal women should helping to protect us

I love my husband dearly

But he takes his life in his hands when he tells me what i 'should' do

And as i said..I actually love him

NatLuc · 02/05/2018 12:34

@spontaneousgiventime - If you had actually read my comment then you would have seen I said that I acknowledge that my issues are not identical. So please do not turn my statement into something it clearly was not. All I said that the issues trans woman do not share with natal women are no less important.

The experiences I was referring to that were the same are the treatment that trans women get as far as being oppressed and mistreaded by men (and mean-spirited women) was the same.

How misogynistic of you to assume that trans women are all about hair flicking and frock wearing. Grow up.

@ICJump - You are right, I have personally done nothing for feminism or trans rights other than living my life as a compassionate person who does nothing to deliberately upset another person. Maybe I should be more involved, but frankly, I don't think my input, even if it supported your opinion would be welcome.

@OvaHere - Feminism is for females? I thought it was about equality for all regardless of gender?

@AngryAttackKittens - My apologies for simply wanting to reply to people and debate my perspective? I guess?

@aaarrrggghhhh - You say you are supportive of trans people and yet you refer to transwomen as men to be served and looked after?