Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

Well, accusations of "cheating" got the last thread deleted. I think calling someone a narcissist is in the same vein.

Oh, are we policing other commenters language again? Fine, I'll bow out. Have at it.

A weakened man =/= a woman.

Exactly.

A perfectly reasonable compromise has been suggested here several times - that trans MTF participants retain their social validation by entering themselves in the F category but also mark themselves as assisted so that women participants can accurately compare themselves to their peers.

That such a reasonable suggestion has been dismissed out of hand to me speaks volumes.

If Parkrun is about inclusion and everybody getting the most out of what it offers - why does this not include women being able to make meaningful comparisons about their levels of fitness and progression? I think we all know why.

Ugh the entitlement of the Y chromosome knows no bounds

Parkrun mark the past runs as assisted rather than the new ones.
So if I’m John and transition to Martha my runs as John are marked assisted but runs as Martha are not.

To be fair, natluc and Ada are entitled to talk about their own wishes. You can’t have a debate if they can’t set out their starting position.

@Ada
“But I think you shouldn’t be the one to make that decision

Yeah, of course. For elite sports at least, the decision has to be made from a position of fairness and equity, looking at the research and evidence that is available. But, with my own recent visibility, I'm not going to offer up opinions on sports that I don't know much about.”

I see what you are saying Ada. I don’t agree but I totally accept it’s a genuine argument in good faith.

Debating with normal trans women (as opposed to some of the provocateurs who come here) is making me sad because there is a genuine conflict of rights :( . However at least we are proving we can have a debate.

Basically Ada I need you to identify with us, not as us, because we have nowhere else to go and nothing else to be than women.

Parkrun mark the past runs as assisted rather than the new ones.
So if I’m John and transition to Martha my runs as John are marked assisted but runs as Martha are not.

That makes no sense.

I agree wholeheartedly with your last post Thanksforthatamazingpost.

I went off to bed last night feeling bad that I may have upset both Ada and Lucy - who I genuinely believe are here in good faith, and just want to enjoy running.

But this: Basically Ada I need you to identify with us, not as us, because we have nowhere else to go and nothing else to be than women. - that's the bottom line for me.

I feel we have to fight for the biological categorisation of women - because people are working to obliterate it, and make everything dependent on gender identity. And because so much depends on us being able to define ourselves as suffering sexism because of that female biology. And I think all women's sports will be damaged by normalising transwomen taking part in women's categories. And I care about women and women's sport.

Debating with normal trans women (as opposed to some of the provocateurs who come here) is making me sad because there is a genuine conflict of rights

But much of that conflict could be eradicated if male humans stopped redefining what a woman is.

Someone earlier pointed out that parkrun ask for "gender" but then confuse things by saying this is so they can classify results by "sex and age".

Surely they need to clarify their own language too?

Barquo. No I don’t think it makes sense. But this is from the article which Shared Adas story to parkrun Australia
Eventually it was decided that all existing runs that were completed by Ada prior to transition, were to be marked as “assisted”.

Sorry Baroquehavoc that should have said

shotsfired it would be nice if parkrun didn't confuse the terms, but I don't think it would have any real effect on the outcome. And I don't think parkrun should have to do anything differently.

@AnitaLovesVictor - I don't think you are being rude at all?

Male - has a basis in biology, whereas trans woman and woman are (at least in the context to which I am referring) social roles that one adopts. What I mean when I say that I am a woman (though I would like to say that this is simplistic of me to say..) is that it is the role I live in, the fact that I was born... incorrectly.. is irrelevant. Referring to myself as a trans woman is a descriptor. As in, to be crude; 'I am a woman that was born with a penis, It is crap that I was but I am not ashamed of it and I am doing what I can as fast as I can to change that because I appreciate that having it makes it difficult to integrate'.

In no way do I mean to erase natal women, not at all. But many of the struggles that they face, I face and though there are struggles they face that I don't there are equally important struggles that I face that natal women do not. It doesn't HAVE to be about who has it worse because frankly, I think that natal women would win that in spades if you were to stack them up as a list through time. But that should not diminish the current issues that trans women face? In particular, the nasty frothing at the mouth attitude of many on these forums who would see me sectioned if they had any power. Poorly explained? Probably.. Need caffeine and I have 3 pages of messages to read through and catch up on and reply to...

With regards to what you said to Cady though, I think it is important to make a distinction here. Yes, I am biologically male. In the sense that I was born (at least I think I was - though I have always had elevated estrogen) with XY chromosomes, but physiologically I am not male anymore, so telling me (not yourself but others) that I am running with all the advantages of being a man is untrue. As I have said in previous comments I have a larger heart and lungs but I also have less muscle to carry the load of the extra skeletal mass that I have as a result of male puberty, So really, do I have that much if any advantage? Biologically male, physiologically female is what I am trying to say?

@AdaRuns - I finally got to your comment!! :) Thank you for chiming in. And also thank you for being able to talk about your times as a before and after transition as well as how it has affected your peer placement in the rankings! I think that this at the very least assuages what I was saying about HRT affecting athletic ability negatively overall but only to a degree that would plonk in the equivalently graded female rank. If that is not fair I do not know what is?

It should not be a case of 'us and them' because our incidence level is so insignificant.. natal and trans women should be united together not divided and It warms my heart that the overwhelming consensus from within your sporting circles has been that of acceptance.

Thank you also for having a better understanding of things like VO2Max as my research into the effects of hormones on this are limited.

@FlyingBird - It would appear that from the support she has been given that yes - they do regard her as their peer.

@ferntwist - 'Cross-sex hormones might have a minimal effect on body fat but very little.'

Are you for real? Have you ever known a person before and after their transition? I have gone from being fairly ripped to being a twig. A 'slightly heavier than I would like to be twig but less muscle than I have had since I was 14' twig. 9 months (rounding up) was all it took for me to lose most of my muscle that was gained through exercise I did to overcompensate for being trans all the way from puberty through until I was 27 (before last October). Hormones control everything.

@Scabbersley - You are right, simply saying it does not make it true, however, the measured effects of hormones are proof of this and frankly, given many of you place so much faith in science (as I do) I find it alarming that you are cherry picking. The fact that studies have been done that demonstrates that performance decreases but only to a point where they are performing at the equivalent female level show this.

@MargeH - I genuinely do not think that your daughter or granddaughter are going to be disadvantaged by the handful of trans people they MIGHT encounter throughout their lives..

@Newsofas - Hmm, that is an interesting topic.. with regards to the boxing in particular. I actually do not know how I feel about that. I mean.. surely as long as they are in the correct weight class then it would not matter? I mean the whole point of that is to prevent massive behemoths from dominating the smaller fighters? But assuming HRT was in place.. the trans woman could conceivably be on equal footing? I am not sure.. That is my initial thought at least?

@Ihaventgottimeforthis - I understand the point you are making... trans people can be incredibly diverse physically speaking and I would say this is more try for trans women. And I think this is perhaps where most of the understandable resentment comes from? The fact that if ALL trans women are welcome to compete as women then what about your 28 year old trans woman who is not on hormones yet and has peak male hormone levels and physique still and then 'beating' you. I get it, that would be unfair.

Does your opinion become forgiving if however, you are talking about a very average trans woman, around your age who has been on hormones for some time and has the same build as you? Bearing in mind that despite having the same build they are likely several KGs heavier. Does your opinion then shift to 'well she beat me but it was fair all things considered'? Just a genuine question.

@FloraFox - I did not say that you specifically said it makes assumptions of a trans individuals mental state, I meant that it is a loaded slur that was manufactured in the first instance to imply that we are simply delusional. It was not an attack on your personally but the acronym itself.

I was also not referring to this thread with respect to the sexual predator comment. As I stated in my opening message I have lurked MN for some time as it has been a bit of a guilty pleasure and some threads do draw parallels to trans women as being nothing more than predators. But hey... Trans woman take Cyproterone Acetate to control testosterone.. sex offenders are made to take it to control their urges... ergo.. trans women must be predators because they take the same incredibly powerful and toxic drug right? Again, not you specifically am I referring to here, I joined MN and started commenting because I got sick of being bashed by people that have absolutely no right to judge me or get to make the decision as to whether I fit the gender role of 'woman' or not. Yes, I am a trans woman, but trans women live and breath the role of woman. That is an important distinction to make I feel?

I also made it clear several times that I DO think it is important to be able to discriminate (in a sense of fairness) at a professional level. Of course I care about this. It is an incredibly important issue and should be discussed but at an amateur level (not even that really in my case?) I am not 'skewing' anyone else's performance stats by competing as a female especially when I have more than average performance compared to other natal women?

@M0RVEN = And that gives you the right to therefor tar all trans women with the same brush? I only know a handful of natal young woman around my age that engage in care work or volunteering.. What a hollow statement, just as mean-spirited as your last one.

So only natal women can experience sexual assault and harassment because the idea that a man might find a trans person desirable is so far out of the realms of possibility for you and natal women also have a monopoly on either job roles involved with safeguarding children or vulnerable people. Right. Got it.

Also, don't gender stereotype. It is ugly. Plenty of natal women 'bang on about makeup' too.

woman are (at least in the context to which I am referring) social roles that one adopts

Can you expand? What social role do women adopt?

What different social roles do men and women adopt when running through a park?

*o only natal women can experience sexual assault and harassment because the idea that a man might find a trans person desirable is so far out of the realms of possibility for you^

Men don’t rape and beat woman cause they find us sexy. They do it because they hate us, because they want to control us, because they can. If you don’t understand that desire and assault are two different things I don’t know where to start.

"If you don’t understand that desire and assault are two different things I don’t know where to start."

Quite.

Everytime TIM come into FWR and patiently explain why women are wrong, I see more and more differences in our biology and experiences.

lucy

I urge you to listen to what women are saying, because this problem is not going to go away. You may not like it, but try not to get defensive.

Your lack of affinity for women is difficult for women to swallow, because in the same breath you're claiming you are one.

There are many transsexuals who do not hold that contention. Social empathy is what they ask for, and that's about the extent of it.

A biological male occupying the place of a biological female is completely flawed - when that place is held on the basis of biology.

I note that you shift the goalposts by saying in one post that you have no advantage over women due to medical intervention, and in another post that you might beat natal males due to medical intervention.

Shifting goalposts to shore up an argument is not a good premise to start with.

And in terms of this particular event. You are saying that under these conditions, in your circumstances, in this particular run, it doesn't matter. Firstly it's not up to you to decide whether it matters, and secondly women shouldn't have to put up with a relentless argument that relies on a case-by-case basis.

We already have categories based on advantage, and they are natal categories. They are comprehensively, and objectively by far the best way to categorise. And for women, they are the only way to categorise.

If you want to recalibrate categorisation based on medical intervention, let's legalise drugging all round. But men will still win.

I, and I think most women on here, understand Cady's point of view that this particular event is negligible. But it's not really about the result, or it's only partly about the result. You can't legislate on the basis of individual circumstances and case-by-case scenarios. I realise that's not necessary in this event, but the principle is exactly the same. Women as a class should not have to suffer any disadvantage in order to validate men as a class.

Claiming that you can ignore this if you do it on an individual basis is demonstrably wrong. Every single time women give an inch over this issue, a mile is instantly taken.

Because it's a complete fallacy to claim that women are giving anything. They're not. It's being taken. Cady might be agreeing with you. But what she doesn't realise is, she has little choice.

What Datun said. Entirely.

@NatLuc, you know, if you (and others) had come along at the start, with a desire to openly converse and debate and discuss, then we may have found a solution and all be bumbling along nicely by now.

Unfortunately, a particular cohort of people claiming to be representing the name of trans people got in there and totally screwed us over. They didn't want debate or mutual agreement. They wanted victory, validation, success (whatever) for them at all expense to natal women (you know, "go diaf TERF" and "dis cis scum" and all the rest of it, up to and including a bunch of masked men physically blocking and intimidating women from attending a meeting about women).

You needed to have stood up then and said "no, this is not what I want, you are not speaking for me". Trans people are a relatively small community, I can't see how this would have been happening in secret.

But now it's fallen to us to repel boarders, and fight (again) for our own agency, so unfortunately things are a lot more difficult.

None of us enjoy this you know. We don't wake up desperate to start telling people to "get off my land!" and having to explain the same concepts time and time again. It was thrust on us by your compadres. How about you turn the spotlight on them?

people that have absolutely no right to judge me or get to make the decision as to whether I fit the gender role of 'woman' or not.

Woman is not a gender role, or an identity. It's an adult human female. We don't know we're women because we fit a gender role.

Also those of us with mental illness are excluded from things, we may not like it but we mostly understand that it's for valid reasons. Mentally ill appears to still be an insult to some, which is pretty backwards IMO.

Also given that gender is a social construct, then its entirely about other people's judgements.

How about if trans people spent their energy making being trans a positive experience in its own right, instead of alienating women by keeping repeating the mantra 'transwomen are women'?

You might find us very supportive allies in those circumstances.

@natluc

@M0RVEN=And that gives you the right to therefor tar all trans women with the same brush? I only know a handful of natal young woman around my age that engage in care work or volunteering.What a hollow statement, just as mean-spirited as your last one

I was talking about the TIM that I know. Unless you are suggesting know all the same ones ? I know many young women who volunteer and who are active in their communities.

And last time I checked, pushing your granny round the supermarket wasn’t “ engaging in care work “.

So only natal women can experience sexual assault and harassment because the idea that a man might find a trans person desirable is so far out of the realms of possibility for you and natal women also have a monopoly on either job roles involved with safeguarding children or vulnerable people. Right. Got it

You are clearly confused because I didnt say any of that. At all.

And I find it quite chilling that you equate being sexually assualted and raped with a man [ the perpetrator ] finding someone [ the victim ] desirable.

Rape and sexual assault are not about attraction, they are about power.

Men don’t harass , abuse , rape and kill women because they find them “desirable “ . They do it because they hate them and to keep them in their place.