Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

There is a constant and single issue whether in discussing changes to the GRA, amateur and professional sports, access to safe spaces eg refuges & school loos, AWS, Girl Guides residential trips, SwimEngland policies etc.

Inclusion efforts for some people who are transgender seem to be rarely accompanied with impact studies/consideration for the girls and women who may very well be affected.

Sometimes there are conflicting rights & we need to be able to discuss this.

This was an important part of the talk given by Linda Bellos. The whole speech deserves wider awareness.

Linda Bellos has been interviewed under caution as a result of this speech.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237264-Linda-Bellos-arrested-Title-edited-by-MNHQ-to-make-clear-that-she-was-in-fact-interviewed-under-caution

@OvaHere - Feminism is for females? I thought it was about equality for all regardless of gender?

Clues in the name

In my experience other women rarely demand that I look after them.

NatLuc How rude you are. My examples are what cause women's oppression, our biology. Of course you can't or won't see that.

I'm grown up enough not to need to tell you to "grow up". You've shown your true colours on this thread, please do carry on though, you allow women who are on the fence or trans allies just what their future could be if we don't fight for our rights.

Apropos of nothing, Lisa Muggeridge has a fabulous phrase...

The penis just can't help announcing itself.

"@OvaHere - Feminism is for females? I thought it was about equality for all regardless of gender? "

And...this again.

speaks slowly its FEMINISM

you know, for women.

"Women's events are a proportionate response to making high level sports inclusive, giving women a chance to win and hopefully encouraging women to take part in sport."

Not just "high level" but all sports activities have girls' events separate from boys, even at schools.

For the reasons you stated. It has nothing to do with women or girls expecting "special treatment" like you claimed downthread.

@OvaHere - Feminism is for females? I thought it was about equality for all regardless of gender?

Nope. Feminism has always been about the liberation of females. As Rufus said the clue is in the name.

Arguing that feminism should be a catch all for everything is straight out of the MRA playbook that seeks to dilute and redirect feminist activism.

@OnTheList - Hello to you too.

See. My issue with the term transsexual is that I cant change my sex. I can change the appearance of my body to more closely approximate that of congruence with my identity, which is why I prefer the term transgender.. I dunno. It is all semantics but the old term just does not sit right with me. If I say 'transgender' I mean someone who is going from one binary to another, if I mean anything else I say non-binary. That is just me though?

@LangCleg - It has been said many times that I type too much. Succinctness is something I need to work on.. lol

@FloraFox - No common cause?

• Agreed that pro athlete discrimination is in place for good reason
• Agrees that the issues natal women face are important but no more so than the issues trans people face

Trying the whole succinct thing. I think that pretty much cuts it?

“Femin-” comes from the latin root word “femina,” meaning woman. ... Then, in 1837, French philosopher and utopian socialist Charles Fourier coined the word word “féminisme” to mean advocacy of women's rights

One of the most important issues women face is the expectation that they devote their lives to being of service to other people...

Feminism is for females? I thought it was about equality for all regardless of gender?

Equality is not all it's cracked up to be...

The penis just can't help announcing itself.

rom those posted earlier, it's a name - age - sex thing all in one table all running in no categories (no categories in parkrun itself when you run, you just run/jog/walk/whatevs.)

just click at the arrows on the top and it will sort it for you into categories @CadyHeron

@Datum - I do listen, and I do understand that I am different to natal women, with some different issues and struggles but does that, therefore, mean that the experiences I have, with respect to being trans female are therefore not just 'worth less' but also worthless despite many of them being the same as a natal woman? I do not think so..*

Nor do I. But I hear this a lot. It's a prevalent comment. It's coming from your own feeling that being a woman is 'better'. That there is something inherently more superior. And women making a distinction between you and them is automatically denigrating.

It's not, I assure you. Women aren't judging womanhood and finding you lacking. They are saying it's not apllicable. No judgement at all. (And I realise by reading that it sounds cold. Again, not the intention).

I think it is a lack of understanding from many users on the likes of MN that is the problem for not seeing that there are clear parallels between the issues faced and that instead of dividing and shrinking away from trans issues, natal women should helping to protect us.

The similarities are superficial. They are about the initial perception and only if someone passes.

Women's actual rights are based on their specific biology - not the lack of male biology. But I understand why that doesn't occur to you.

The notion that women have the power to protect whole swathes of men from other men, is risible. And breathtakingly blind.

I do have a problem with the language consistently used, however. I am not a man. I am male.

I don't understand when words changed meaning. Male means:

of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
"male children"

Which is the same as man. Man and woman aren't social categories. They are a description of potential biological function. Perhaps you mean that if that function is compromised you cease to be of that sex? That can't work - menopause, pre pubescence, infertility?

Perhaps you mean masculine or feminine.

Natluc it's good to have discourse. I wish you well. We disagree, I'm afraid.

LangCleg

What she said. Regardless of the medical treatment you have had and your current self identity, the current attitude and approach you are demonstrating in this thread is very typically associated with male privilege.

Feminism is not for females. I can't even.

"I have personally done nothing for feminism or trans rights other than living my life as a compassionate person who does nothing to deliberately upset another person. Maybe I should be more involved, but frankly, I don't think my input, even if it supported your opinion would be welcome."

So you've done nothing but women should do it for you? Refer above point about displaying attitude typically associated with male privilege.

@spontaneousgiventime - I think on the contrary it is you who has shown true colours, assuming that trans women are nothing more than superficial imitations and completely disregarding that we are actual people who experience actual hardships the same as natal women.

I will be over here supporting my natal female friends and family and even woman I do not know whilst you spit and seethe that all I want to do is barge in an erase you.

It has been said many times that I type too much. Succinctness is something I need to work on.

You are not alone. It seems to be a consistent theme from those who come here to a) appeal to our female socialisation to our own detriment, and b) present a list of demands to which women should feel obliged to comply.

I'm not being combative with you: I'm describing a common dynamic hereabouts, which is not feminist. I would advise a different approach should your genuine wish be to persuade in good faith.

I loved that talk by Linda.

When she said that masculinity and femininity as social categories that justify inequalities, she gets to the heart of the matter. TIM are asking that women prop up a system that damages us.

Spit and seethe, eh? Is she stirring a cauldron too in this hypothetical scenario?

Basically, you seem like an intelligent person NatLuc and i wish you well. You have your own experiences and problems which are particular to you. You are a transwoman. I am a woman (a natal born female).

You are not the same as me. That doesn't make either of us 'better'. Just utterly different in ways you don't seem to grasp.

NatLuc

Yes, I am a trans woman, but trans women live and breath the role of woman.

What role is that, exactly?

See. My issue with the term transsexual is that I cant change my sex. I can change the appearance of my body to more closely approximate that of congruence with my identity, which is why I prefer the term transgender.. I dunno. It is all semantics but the old term just does not sit right with me. If I say 'transgender' I mean someone who is going from one binary to another, if I mean anything else I say non-binary. That is just me though?

Yeah that makes sense I guess. 'Transgender' to me though..kind of doesn't make sense as you are not transitioning from one 'gender' to another, as, well, your 'gender' is your gender. I prefer to think of gender as a personality tbh, as thats what I believe it is.

My main issue with transgender is how wide the 'umbrella' is. It basically lumps fetishists and drag queens and such in with transsexual people. I think in changing transsexual to transgender, thats where all of the recent 'female penis' shit started to be honest. and I think it was deliberate too. I am aware that comes across slightly conspiracy theory like though. Most of the general public hear 'transgender' and think transsexual. They do not realise that transgender includes crossdressers and masculine women, feminine men, etc.

NatLuc. I recommend that you watch that video of Linda Bellos linked up thread. You might learn something.

One of my issues is that to the extent that there's a role for women in society that role is "unpaid and underappreciated carer", on a far more universal level than the "decorative object" role. Given that the former role is not one commonly taken on by trans women this leads me to suspect that on a very fundamental level they do not understand what the female gender role in society actually is.

(And that's before we even get to the biology stuff.)