Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

The mixed football for teens thing is actually really interesting and likely NOT to benefit girls and young women IMO - might be a good one for a separate thread. Would be interested in the FA’s rationale for the changes and how they are monitoring / evaluating the impacts on girls/women specifically, eg participation, teams’ positions, injuries.

We don't get boys trialling and taking places from girls (although this could happen) purely because the team has "ladies" in the title!

Yeah it's really interesting dozer

Esp as the elite talent pathway is girls only from 12 so different to the leagues.

Hi Ada,welcome.

“But at least from a personal perspective, I wouldn't be happy competing in a sport where it was shown that I do retain an advantage. I might participate, but I wouldn't feel comfortable competing.”

But I think you shouldn’t be the one to make that decision. I don’t get to decide if I’m “comfortable” with you getting your salary this month, and you shouldn’t get to decide if a single sex competition should remain single sex..

But I think you shouldn’t be the one to make that decision

Yeah, of course. For elite sports at least, the decision has to be made from a position of fairness and equity, looking at the research and evidence that is available. But, with my own recent visibility, I'm not going to offer up opinions on sports that I don't know much about.

People of a sex shouldn’t get to decide whether a competition remains single sex? Why not? Doesn’t arise for men, conveniently.

A weakened man =/= a woman.

We are not simply smaller, weaker men. We are different.

The insistence that a weak man is a woman is highly insulting, misogynistic. And follows the same logic that says gay men, especially effeminate gay men, are not "real men" and that masculine women, especially butch lesbians, "want to be men".

I am sick of this sexist nonsense. Women are not weak versions of default man FFS.

NatLuc

FloraFox referring to your comment on page 17, so you are telling me that deliberately reminding a trans person that they are born incorrectly in a way that brands them as mentally ill is carefully conveying the truth?

So that is not at all what I said. The expression "Trans Identified Male" contains no assumptions about the causes of a person being trans identified nor of their state of mind.

In contrast, referring to someone as a trans man or trans woman is at least giving them the respect that they deserve by referring to them as the gender they should have been/are striving to attain the recognition for (you know.... that certificate many of you seem to despise even has the 'R' word in it). It conveys empathy for the shitty situation that trans people are in

As I said above, I don't understand why you think you are a woman and not a man and I don't share your view. That's the definition of empathy so you are asking me to convey a belief I don't hold. This is an experience women are familiar with when it comes to prioritising men's feelings.

Language has power. The term "transwoman" leads directly to thought terminating expressions like "transwomen are women". If women need (and they do) to identify the oppression experienced by women, they need a foundation which recognises the class of women as distinct from the class of men. Using words that indicate that a person can opt into (or out of) their sex class is not truthful and harmful for women's rights.

But hey, as I have stated I am not an active TRA. I am just sick of reading thread after thread referring to me as a sexual predator.

Yeah, that didn't happen but when your argument can't stand on its own merits, it's easier to argue against something that no-one said, right?

Both natluc and ada have made it clear from their posts that they don't really care about other trans identified males competing in other women's sports or any other issues where the participation of trans identified males in women's categories might be to the detriment of women. So long as they get to do what they want, that seems to be all that matters to them.

Cady I expect you think you're putting forward a very reasonable compromise on this thread. When it comes down to it, your views would have you cast as a horrible bigot by TRAs because you recognise the need for some limits on TIMs participating in women's sports.

At the present time, mainstream TRAs (as in, the ones we hear on television and in the media) are not looking for compromise, they are looking for nothing less than complete capitulation.

Yeah, of course. For elite sports at least, the decision has to be made from a position of fairness and equity, looking at the research and evidence that is available. But, with my own recent visibility, I'm not going to offer up opinions on sports that I don't know much about.

Thanks @AdaRuns and also @NatLuc for responding on the thread. Even if we disagree, I welcome your input as part of the valid discussion that needs to be had.

My point for earlier asking where the line should be drawn was to (a) point out there is a line and it seems like we just subjectively disagree on where it is.

And (b) that wherever we set that line, I and many others are now fearful it will be pushed and pushed and pushed, till it moves to the next line, and the next and the next. Because that's what we've been seeing in all other spheres of life where women as a sex had an exclusivity.

So now many of us have gone from a place of implicit and mutual co-operation and acceptance to feeling like we are being pushed out and off our own stage. To the point where we are now saying "enough!" and digging our heels in with the only line that can be objective, which is our DNA. Even if you don't agree with this, or the tactics being used by certain groups of TRAs to achieve this, can you see why we are reacting like this now?

So long as they get to do what they want, that seems to be all that matters to them.

That's the way I read it too. Maybe they need to explore the concept of selflessness if they really want to make their way in the world as a woman: Mumsnet is littered with evidence of women carrying out selfless acts, day in day out. It's the default position of most women I know.

selflessness

NOUN
concern more with the needs and wishes of others than with one's own.

Empathy works both ways.

A weakened man =/= a woman.

We are not simply smaller, weaker men. We are different.

The insistence that a weak man is a woman is highly insulting, misogynistic. And follows the same logic that says gay men, especially effeminate gay men, are not "real men" and that masculine women, especially butch lesbians, "want to be men".

I am sick of this sexist nonsense. Women are not weak versions of default man FFS.

Thank you. Every time I read this shit all I hear is "Behold my misogyny, is it not shiny and beautiful? Now get back in your woman box or I'll punch you."

Maybe they need to explore the concept of selflessness if they really want to make their way in the world as a woman: Mumsnet is littered with evidence of women carrying out selfless acts, day in day out. It's the default position of most women I know

That’s interesting. Because I don’t know any TIM who lead lives anything like most of the women I know.

Eg working in NMW jobs part time around caring for their children. Or balancing their career with the needs of kids and elderly/disabled relatives. Doing most of the housework, wife work and childcare.

It’s all young single middle class professionals banging on about clothes and make up and why lesbians should be having sex with them.

I’d be more convinced about their womanhood if I saw them pushing their great gran round Tesco in a wheelchair or volunteering with homeless people.

so you are telling me that deliberately reminding a trans person that they are born incorrectly in a way that brands them as mentally ill

I dont get that

flora didnt say that

She said people who identify as men or women...i thought the whole fucking point of this was identifying as something

M0RVEN

Yup. Which is probably why they don't seem to 'get' it.

We don't think TIMs were born incorrectly. We think that feminine men are absolutely fine as they are and there's no reason why either they or society should pretend that they're women.

nd I'm quite possibly the trans woman the OP was complaining about that started this whole discussion.

Really

Happy to believe its true but how do you work that one out

Yes this is absolutely true. And the whole way that tims are so aggressive about their claims to be women just isn't the way that actual women normally handle things. I'm not saying that women handle things differently because theyre intrinsically different - I don't know it could be sociallisation- but the fact remains tims don't resemble biological women.

Didn't Ada say they were from outside the UK? If so them being the person the OP was referring to seems unlikely.

Based on what they've said about themselves, neither Ada or Lucy (? I think that's the name. Apologies if I'm mistaken) are the person I was talking about.

For the sake of my own privacy, as well as that of the person I was behind, I avoided being specific about age, time and location. If yet another trans person joins the discussion, I will not say anything - yay or nay - regarding if their information matches. It wouldn't be impossible for a few people to post specific attributes to try narrow down the location and identity, or to think that they have.

"I recently got a story about me in the Australian parkrun newsletter,"

Who said that AngryAttackKittens? I think Ada said that it was possible. That's true of any trans parkrunner who is reading this.

Possible yes. Likely? Not so much.

Hey, at least I virtuously resisted the urge to include a link to You're So Vain on YT.

Ada didn't say "likely" - they said "quite possibly." I don't detect any narcissism in that. I took it to mean "I could be that person." Because they could. And so they feel qualified to give us a POV that is possibly what the actual person would say.

You are of course free to see Ada's contributions however you like. And so am I.