Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

Ada and Lucy thank you for your honest views and for explaining your views. You both seem very reasonable.

If we ignore Park Run as I think we have done that to death. How do you feel about male boxers transitioning and now fighting as women? Or male cyclists transitioning and now winning women’s road cycling events? Personally I don’t think this is fair but what do you think we as women should do about it?

Ada how come your identity is more important than my biology?

My dd plays mixed football so a trans girl on a team wouldn't be an issue.

Obviously

AuntieStella "you should adhere to the rules of the governing body" isn't good enough, as there is a lot of contention within the governing bodies over what's fair. Arbitrary testosterone limits being imposed rather than arbitrary Y chromosome limits, for example.

Sure, parkrun isn't a huge deal. But then you get the Boston Marathon, which is a combination of amateur and professional in the same event. Right on up to the Olympics.

Scabbersley How old is your dd? It's different when they are 7 or 17.

Are you talking about a hockey/netball competition, under the governing rules, or a scratch game for whoever turns up in the park on a Saturday? Both. I feel it's intrusive having a male bodied player on the team. physically intrusive.

The FA has approved mixed football until 18.

Once girls reach a certain age they do not play mixed football. My son is 15 and nearly 6 feet with no muscle yet (beanpole) but I wouldn’t want to tackle him on a pitch especially since he can lift me up and I can’t lift him.

She's 12 and about to trial for the u14s. That could mean she is a year 8 12 year old girl playing against a year 9 15 year old boy. Last season there was a concussion, a broken arm and a broken collarbone. I am dreading it tbh.

Once girls reach a certain age they do not play mixed football
They do, the FA changed it fairly recently

Scabbersley - perhaps the FA has approved mixed football upto 18 to avoid the contentious issue of transitioning teenagers and raising this exact issue that we are having on this thread. (It also means they don’t have to put funds into girls teams). I don’t think mixed football upto the age 18 is fair at all and to be honest will probably stop a lot of teen girls playing.

The FA has approved mixed football until 18. What was the rationale for this, do you know by any chance? Sounds like a very bad idea. I doubt boys would be very please about this either.

I agree that this matters in elite sport, and combat sports. Park run though? Even if Ada is wrong in asserting a lack of advantage, I don't think it matters.

When I get off my arse to do Park Run, I like to compare my (shocking) time to my Age Grade, to assess my performance against my peers. It's an element of competition, to help me measure my improvement and also spur me on.
If my peers now include transwomen, who may be at any stage of transition, that is not fair grading. That's my problem.

I remember watching mixed hockey at school. It was terrifying.

It had nothing to do with transgender, sorry to derail th thread.

One reason given was so that people would take women's football more seriously. They also want to research the benefits do mixed teams.

In my experience being a girls team in a boys league is fine when they are u12 but dispiriting at u16

Elite boys football is done in yearly age groups and elite girls are two yearly, also crap. I wish my dd didn't like it tbh!!

Ada's reduced times doesn't prove they are now a women, running women's times. All it proves is their times have now become slower. Age is likely to be a contributory factor.

The only satisfying thing about it is when you get a really cocky and aggressive boys team and they get beaten

I hasten to add most of the boys are really welcoming and sportsman like

But, sorry to go on and more relevant to thread, they are generally huge. And powerful. Dd got taken out last night in the penalty box (she's top scorer so a target) and is absolutely covered in bruises this morning. I've been to the local minor injuries more times than I can remember

How do you feel about male boxers transitioning and now fighting as women? Or male cyclists transitioning and now winning women’s road cycling events?

Honestly, I don't know enough about these fields and what sort of advantages trans women may have. With running, I have made the choices I have because I am confident that I don't have an advantage.

But at least from a personal perspective, I wouldn't be happy competing in a sport where it was shown that I do retain an advantage. I might participate, but I wouldn't feel comfortable competing.

Are there still girl only teams? Mixed teams may be ok for the bigger, stronger girls, but would exclude more average girls.

baroque she is in a "ladies" team although they can't legally disallow boys joining. But they play in a mixed league so play against boys teams

Ada's reduced times doesn't prove they are now a women, running women's times. All it proves is their times have now become slower. Age is likely to be a contributory factor.

That's why I mentioned age grading. It accounts for age and gender. My relative performance as a 41 year old "man" is close to my relative performance as a 42 year old woman.

I'm also only 1 year older, I haven't lost that much speed from being old :)

The boys teams occasionally have a girl in them but they are usually very much subs and rarely play a full match.