Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

You make it sound like we ask for the moon on a stick.

NatLuc, you're not alone! I'm a transgender parkrunner to. I recently got a story about me in the Australian parkrun newsletter, and I'm quite possibly the trans woman the OP was complaining about that started this whole discussion.

One thing you need to realise though is that mumsnet favours a very specific set of beliefs around transgender people and our identities. It does not reflect the larger experience you'll have at parkrun.

In my case, since the article went live, I have been drowned by messages of support, including the various women's running groups I'm a member of. Of course, there have been negative voices too, but they are small in number, and tend to be restricted to specific spaces where those beliefs are welcome.

And in terms of advantage, before my transition, as a 41 year old, running against males, my PB was 19:41, which means that I ran 70% of the male world record for my age.

Since transitioning, hormones have drastically reduced my athletic ability. My best time now is 23:00, which has me running at about 67% of the women's world record for my age.

That is to say, even though my times have dropped, my performance within my gender category has stayed roughly the same. I haven't found any advantages, and in fact, I'm performing slightly worse against women than I did against men.

And the research shows that for transitioning runners at least, my experience is typical. As long as our training stays constant, even though our times drop, our age grading stays roughly where it was.

That's the thing that I find frustrating in all of this. So many of these comments are based on assumptions of advantage, and for running at least, they simply don't exist. We don't see trans women runners dominating their sports, we don't see large changes in performance, with ladies running better against women than they did against men. The (admittedly limited) research in this field demonstrates the same. If transitioned trans women had an advantage in running, we'd have seen it by now

It's just asking for an overall fairness towards women, Ada. An opportunity for women to compare like with like - in a category of biological women.

It's not just parkrun - the reason I argue so vociferously is that this has implications for all women's sports. You must have seen the headlines. This is part of a normalisation of born males being allowed to identify into women's sporting categories.

Request a category for your gender if you please rather than trying to turn our sex category into your gender.

It's just asking for an overall fairness towards women, Ada. An opportunity for women to compare like with like

That's exactly what I'm looking for too! I'm not a man. I don't have a mans advantages. My peers are women, who I don't have advantage over.

But you're not a biological woman either, Ada. With the best will in the world, you haven't been through female puberty, you don't have periods every month, you haven't been through pregnancy or childbirth.

I wish the best possible experience with parkrun - but please don't insist you are the same as biological women. That is unfair.

I wish the best possible experience with parkrun - but please don't insist you are the same as biological women.

I'm not the same as most other woman. My experiences are very different to most women's. I accept that. But I'm still a woman. And whatever differences I do have, athletic advantage isn't one of them

My peers are women, who I don't have advantage over.

Your beliefs are in direct conflict with material reality.

Request a category for your gender if you please rather than trying to turn our sex category into your gender.

How does that work at parkrun level then? Surely at any given run there'll only be one,possibly even two at a stretch running.
If they've transitioned to women,and in a non competitive race, they have every right not to be in a category all by themselves.

Your beliefs are in direct conflict with material reality.

They're really not. My own experience, which I listed early pretty clearly shows that. And the research that has been done backs it up.

Now I'm not talking about all sports. I'm not saying we don't have an advantage anywhere at anything. But in the context of running, we don't have an advantage.

Another way of looking at it- do women consider you their peer?

For the most part, yes they do. I'm sure there are exceptions, but my day to day experience has been one of support and inclusion.

Another way of looking at it- do women consider you their peer?

In a non competitive, all inclusive race like parkrun? Yes I do.

Ada, you're not the person in the op of the original thread. I am not 2 seconds slower than 23 minutes.

You said that there has been relatively little negative reaction to your participation, and that has been limited to forums where they feel safe voicing their opinions. That would indicate that there is likely more than you're aware of.

It may be that some women genuinely see you as a peer. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the smiling, supportive women also mentally remove you from the results when they get their results email,if they're at all inclined to want to track their standing amongst their age/sex group.

I am not 2 seconds slower than 23 minutes.

I don't run those sorts of times anymore! My training has dropped off quite a lot. I'm running closer to 25 minutes these days.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if the smiling, supportive women also mentally remove you from the results when they get their results email,if they're at all inclined to want to track their standing amongst their age/sex group.

And that's their right. No one has an obligation to personally accept my identity as valid. People are allowed to think what they think.

AdaRuns, how odd that you came just for this thread to say the women can lump it.

But it starts at parkrun. The Boston marathon has now said that trans women can compete as women. So as we all seem to agree marathons are competitive. So Cady do you now agree this is wrong?

Men on average have an advantage over women running 5K because they have larger heart and lungs

And that's still true. I probably do have a larger heart and lungs, because hormones don't really change that. But they do change every other part of my cardiovascular system. My red blood cell count is reduced, my VO2Max is reduced and my blood oxygen levels are reduced.

As I understand it, my heart and lungs don't give me an advantage here, because the other parts of my cardiovascular system become the limiting factor.

much higher muscle ratio, lower body fat percentage (even for overweight men) and a different bone structure.

All of this changes with hormones! I used to have 15% body fat. I haven't changed weight during my transition, but my body fat is now at 20%, and is located in traditionally female locations. My thighs rub together when I run now! And the reason my body fat has gone up, but my weight hasn't changed, is because I've lost muscle mass. My strength is greatly reduced, especially in my upper body.

And my body fat levels still aren't at the levels they will ultimately end up at. It's still slowly increasing

Cross sex hormones might have a minimal affect on body fat but very little.

It's more than minimal!

And ultimately, the reason I don't mark my runs as assisted anymore is because I have done the research and looked at my own results and I am confident I am not carrying an unfair advantage over other women. If I believed for a second that I was, I'd change all of my results to assisted in a heartbeat.

I do understand that not everyone agrees with me, whether they doubt my right to run as a woman, or simply believe that I do have an advantage. But all I can do is what I believe to be the right and fair thing. And that's what I'm doing. Even if you do disagree with me, this was a choice I made after a lot of personal consideration. My historical pre-transition runs are all marked as assisted precisely because it was the right thing to do.

But, I am a woman, and I will run as a woman. I won't let other people decide my identity for me, though I do acknowledge their right to disagree with me. And as long as the evidence continues to suggest that I'm running without advantage, I will continue to run openly with and as a woman.

i can for the Boston Marathon, because that's a competitive event, under rules.

Whatever people insist here, based on the wrong assumption that timed=competitive, Parkrun is an inclusive community event, not a competitive one and is not under rules.

And no, I do not agree that all events must be competitive.

But in the context of running, we don't have an advantag

You can say that as many times as you like, it doesn't make it true.

The problem with some transitioning/transitioned men seems to be that they seem completely oblivious to the idea that women, raised all their life as women, might look at things in a different way. It seems so incredibly self-centred and only emphasises the difference between biological males and females. Female socialisation means we tend to look at the wider picture

If you settle for calling yourselves transwomen, we will accept that and conceivably find a way of co-existing. If you insist on calling yourselves women (and you are doing so on this thread) and infiltrating women-only spaces uninvited, don't be surprised if we fight back.

That is not transphobic, btw. I have the utmost sympathy for your situation and wish anyone transitioning a happy future .... as long as it's not at the expense of my daughter and granddaughter's future too. Because protecting others, especially family, is what most women instinctively do.

How would people on here feel if their dd was competing in hockey or netball and there was a trans girl (native male) in the opposing team? We will see more of this. I feel really uneasy about this. My dd can be at the top of her game but would be made to feel lesser compared to a trans girl who will have a physiological advantage. Genuine question, not to inflame. I can see both sides.

Ciao2Roma Are you talking about a hockey/netball competition, under the governing rules, or a scratch game for whoever turns up in the park on a Saturday?

For the former, the rules as set by governing body would apply and should be adhered to. For the latter, no, not bothered (even though people would know which team won, one hopes in those circs no-one would be attaching weight to it)