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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

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spontaneousgiventime · 01/05/2018 23:33

MIdgebabe Is that addressed to me? If so, no, I don't want trouble, I want what is fair based on sex not gender or worse, feelings. Allowing trans women to compete against women is not fair to women, men once again have the advantage. If trans women want to compete, do what women did, organise runs. It's not rocket science really. It won't happen of course because that is not validating.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 23:34

So if men compare against men and women against women, who do transpeople ( who do hormone and surgical procedures) compare themselves to? How is that fair? There are no third spaces. Why can't we have a non competitive event that is treated as such?

Just going to agree with you again. It totally is a pick your battle situation, as there's nothing wrong with parkrun being inclusive for everyone and being a non competitive event. In a competitive one, people would have a point.Not here though. There's no spaces being taken away from anyone.

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 23:41

I want what is fair based on sex not gender or worse, feelings

Yes this, it fair. Why should transwomen run against women? We are not the same.

ShotsFired · 02/05/2018 00:03

So when does it become "fair" to segregate?

Parkrun?
Running clubs?
Local charity 5k?
Regional 10k?
Half-marathon?
Full marathon?
One of the prestige marathons (London, Boston etc)?
Ultra running?
Specialist activities like trail or fell running?
Amateur athletics?
Competition athletics?
Professional athletics?
Etc..

Come on naysayers (or maybe that should be yaysayers?!), tell us where the acceptable line is the, if parkrun isn't it. And why that line is more ok than another (and why you think it will be respected anymore than parkrun)

spontaneousgiventime · 02/05/2018 00:10

ShotsFired No amount of give by women will ever be enough. Trans women and TRA will not be happy until women no longer exist. Who will validate the TW when they've forced women out of the picture completely?

NatLuc · 02/05/2018 00:31

@FloraFox referring to your comment on page 17, so you are telling me that deliberately reminding a trans person that they are born incorrectly in a way that brands them as mentally ill is carefully conveying the truth?

In contrast, referring to someone as a trans man or trans woman is at least giving them the respect that they deserve by referring to them as the gender they should have been/are striving to attain the recognition for (you know.... that certificate many of you seem to despise even has the 'R' word in it). It conveys empathy for the shitty situation that trans people are in. But hey, as I have stated I am not an active TRA. I am just sick of reading thread after thread referring to me as a sexual predator.

A few have seen asked 'why can't these transgenders be happy with themselves and refer to themselves as TRANS men and TRANS women' I am happy with myself. As I have said:

I am biologically male.

I am a trans woman.

But I am also a woman. My experience might be different to a traditional woman but that does not mean that my experience is any less important. It is certainly is not more important either.

Was I 'socialised' as a male? Well it was attempted. I certainly resisted it the whole way. Do I think that maybe some of it managed to seep its way in? Absolutely. I don't know a single person male or female at birth that has not taken on bad social traits of male and female socialisation. Just reading some of the messages on MN I can see that many people have absorbed some toxic maleness. But see this is where the whole socialisation theory breaks down, everyone is a mixture of experiences. I spent most of my childhood with my grandparents rather than my parents (who are incredibly transphobic and whom I have not spoken to since I came out) and my grandmother encouraged me to be myself. My aunt told me that 'whilst she she was not expecting it, it makes complete sense as she and the rest of the family apart from my parents knew something was different'. It was my father who tried to force his masculine 'men should be this way' in to me and it just did not work.

I am happy. Immeasurably more so than when I was hiding and living as a male. But I also do not see the problem with me competing as a woman in amongst 200 other amateur female runners. I have already conceded that professionally speaking I think there should be the ability to discriminate based on fairness. Don't you think that the if I competed as a male then the bloke behind me in the roster is doing to feel pissed that he was beaten by a 'light on her feet due to less muscle' tranny if he was so competitively driven? So tell me, when the incidence is so low for trans people how can I accurately measure myself against my closest trans peers? Hint - I cant. Natal females around my age and build are my closest peers.

As for the whole 'gender neutral clothing' to 'conceal' myself; I transitioned so I didn't have to keep concealing myself. That is a compromise I am not willing to make. Though I will accept in this day and age, concealing my real name is something that has given me food for thought.. So I will accept that, though I should not have to.

Also I am going to say this though I know it will do nothing to change anything but; Even if you maintain that trans women are not women, please at the very least do not equate me or other genuine trans women to men. Trans woman are vastly different to men even if we are not the same 100% as natal women. It is disingenuous, cruel and simply not true. I am in this instance referring to trans women who has at least begun HRT.

@ShotsFired - Looking at that list, IMO the ones I should be able to compete as a woman at without overt disclosure:

Parkrun
Charity Runs

But if I am honest, I don't know enough about the definition of some of the others (and it is too late and I have posted far too much).

I need to stop trying to reply to every single person who says something.

So apologies for the constant walls of text people.. I am too tired to type anymore.

thebewilderness · 02/05/2018 00:39

Good grief, I begin to think that many people here have never experianced real discrimination if they are willing to get in such a paddy over one transwomen running in a non competitive event.

Sorry I don't know of special connotations around the phrase " special treatment" ...sorry if my choice of words has not helped

People who have experienced "real discrimination" know exactly what it means to ask for fair and equitable treatment and be told they are demanding "special treatment".

If you think this is so unimportant why exactly are you here arguing against fair and equitable treatment?

thebewilderness · 02/05/2018 00:44

FloraFox referring to your comment on page 17, so you are telling me that deliberately reminding a trans person that they are born incorrectly in a way that brands them as mentally ill is carefully conveying the truth?
I did not read past this shockingly dishonest opening salvo, where you put words in a woman's mouth in order to shame her for them.

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 00:46

"I am biologically male.

I am a trans woman.

But I am also a woman."

I don't mean to be rude - but are you really thinking it's reasonable to claim all three of those? If you're bio male, a TW and also a woman - then what am I? (please don't say cis - that is a made up word I find offensive).

This is what women mean when we speak of our erasure. It's like women don't count any more - we can't even have our piddly 'sex and age' category in parkrun without being told we're unreasonable.

spontaneousgiventime · 02/05/2018 00:49

I also do not see the problem with me competing as a woman in amongst 200 other amateur female runners.

Well you wouldn't would you. You were socialised to believe men got what they want and women can 'sling their hook' when it comes to telling men they're wrong. You say you were not socialised fully as a boy, I call BS. Any male born child is socialised as male, if not within the family then by society. Your actions along with your words speak volumes about your socialisation. You'll never agree with this because you don't see it, and that is the difference between men and women.

One thing you forget, we are surrounded by men all the time, we see the difference.

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 00:50

Don't you think that the if I competed as a male then the bloke behind me in the roster is doing to feel pissed that he was beaten by a 'light on her feet due to less muscle' tranny if he was so competitively driven? So tell me, when the incidence is so low for trans people how can I accurately measure myself against my closest trans peers? Hint - I cant. Natal females around my age and build are my closest peers.

You make a really good point. Where are you supposed to go? Some women - "not one of us, go away." Some butch men thinking- "FFS, how am I being overtaken by a trans?"

Marking out as different in separate categories not the way to go about it either though as leaving wide open for abuse.
Marking out people as different in the past has worked wonders, and not othering at all, after all.....

thebewilderness · 02/05/2018 00:51

It's like you are looking for trouble
You have ticked every homophobic racist statement used against people over the years who request fair and equitable treatment.

spontaneousgiventime · 02/05/2018 00:54

You make a really good point. Where are you supposed to go?

Do what women did, organise they're own events instead of appropriating women's spaces - simple.

spontaneousgiventime · 02/05/2018 00:55

*there own, not they're.

spontaneousgiventime · 02/05/2018 00:55

FFS THEIR own.

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 00:59

Do what women did, organise they're own events instead of appropriating women's spaces - simple

At the risk of sounding like a broken record there are nooooo women's places to take at parkrun. It's inclusive for everyone and they've obviously said as much.

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 01:03

there are nooooo women's places to take at parkrun.

Oh fgs Cady, how many people have to say this to you - you receive a placement within your sex/age category.

Lucy says she is a biological male, as well as a transwoman - how is it fair on women that Lucy is placed in with the biological females? We know there are physiological advantages to being biologically male in running races - as there are in many/most sports. That's why women's sports are separated from the mens.

thebewilderness · 02/05/2018 01:04

Where do you suggest the women go for fairness when their category is taken over by men who want to brag that they came in first or second?

There is a women's category. Why are you denying it?

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 01:13

Oh fgs Cady, how many people have to say this to you - you receive a placement within your sex/age category.

Right,right. Maybe parkrun should just do away with the sex column on the published online results then.
Seriously, where are people wanting this to go? It's a non competitive run. Exercise on a Saturday morning for all.
They've even said, everyone welcome, non competitive, and they're sad that people feel they have to ask if they are welcome or not before signing up and getting out there.
You (general you) might hate the thought of transitioned women being women , but they're doing fuck all wrong at parkrun in a non competitive run.

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 01:18

Why do you keep denying there is a) a women's category, and b) an element of competitiveness in Parkrun?

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 01:23

Seriously, where are people wanting this to go? Seems the only way to resolve this is to get rid of the sex column? I hope they don't though.

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 01:33

No, we want there to a biological women's category. It's really terribly simple.

Stop trying to remove stuff that women want.

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 01:35

Right, I'm obviously going to have to get off my fat ass and go to Parkrun on Saturday again. Been a few months since I did it . Just so I can see if any emails shows anything different to the actual result table that just shows placing of those who ran, with age group and sex next to it. All in one table, together. I've never raged because someone totally male has beat me in the listing before making me huff that I'm now number 57 as opposed to 55 or whatever. Cos you're all in the same published list.
I blame you all for making me feel like I can't just drink my tea and have toast in bed whilst DH/kiddy small peeps go running lol.
From those posted earlier, it's a name - age - sex thing all in one table all running in no categories (no categories in parkrun itself when you run, you just run/jog/walk/whatevs.)

CadyHeron · 02/05/2018 01:37

Stop trying to remove stuff that women want.

I don't friggin want it removing! I even said I hope they dont though.

AnitaLovesVictor · 02/05/2018 01:41

Honestly, what is the matter with women having fair categorisation based on their biological sex?

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