Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

the olympics is competitive sport which I have already said is different from a non competitive event. Women's events are a proportionate response to making high level sports inclusive, giving women a chance to win and hopefully encouraging women to take part in sport.

Parkrun is competitive.

Parkrun results are categorised by age and sex

I can't believe people still aren't understanding this

Of course, women and girls should be forced to compete against men and boys until they are at a high level. Then it can be separated by sex.

That’s makes total sense. I wonder why Sports England haven’t thought of that before. You should contact then with your genius idea Midgebaby.

The problem is, where do you draw the line?

My line is women's sport should be XX chromosome-based, with possible allowances made for intersex individuals on a case by case basis. It really could be that simple.

It's funny how it's always trans women demanding entry into women's spaces isn't it? We never (or I haven't) heard of trans men doing the same (happy to be corrected). I suspect this is down to socialisation. Trans men taught not to make a fuss and to accept what they are told. Trans women taught that as men they hold all the rights.

Stuff that women (of the biological kind) might want to have something for themselves. We all have to bow to the patriarchy and validate feelings to the detriment of our sex!

It's a problem because it's putting your " I want " above someone elses " I want" without full consideration of the two different wants.

one person running as f instead of male who finishes mid table is not preventing yourself from seeing how you do compared to z200 other women ...statistically the perturbation from one odd ball entry is irrelevant.

So isaying " want to compare myself and the transwomen makes that impossible " is a want that does not stand up to basic stats.

So why make someone feel bad about themselves just so you can have a marginally more accurate position?

I really do think it's unfair to expect women to run against transwomen - who in general terms will be at a physiological advantage, even if taking sex hormones.

Why can't women be competitive at Parkrun? Is it not ladylike enough?

Fairness to women doesn't seem to matter much to some people.

Good grief. I don't think that men and women should compete in sport. But parkrun is not a competition. If you want a competition, enter a race.

And even then, if it's a event of hundreds or thousands of people, then unless someone was using a trans identity to gain advantage. I wouldn't care who they ran as. Why should I?

" I want " seems perfectly acceptable to everyone as long as women don't say it.

" I want " seems perfectly acceptable to everyone as long as women don't say it.

+1

Women should NOT have special treatment unless that is a proportionate response to a particular problem. The problem here is that some women want to use the published times to compare themselves to other women.

You mean the same way the men can?
All my life white men have claimed that women or POC or Lesbians or Gays wanting to be treated equitably is "special treatment".

Males measuring their speed against females instead of males is special treatment.

You can be competitive in parkrun if you want but you can't force anyone else to be competitive because it is totally expected that it is not about beating other people. it's purpose is not a race. Are you dliberatly rebranding it as a race to make it hard for a transperson?Which seems petty.

Fairness to women doesn't seem to matter much to some people

Of course not Anita. It’s only natal men’s feelings that count and women just have to budge up.

Can I remind you of the rules of misogyny? Particularly relevant here are :

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

MIdgebabe

Can you possibly be unaware of what a buzz word "special treatment" is when you are talking to people who are asking for fair and equitable treatment?

Good grief. I don't think that men and women should compete in sport. But parkrun is not a competition. If you want a competition, enter a race.
EXACTLY, it's not fucking rocket science, is it,but you'd bloody think so!!

Good grief, I begin to think that many people here have never experianced real discrimination if they are willing to get in such a paddy over one transwomen running in a non competitive event.

Discrimination is being treated unfairly...,being paid 10% less than the men..being raped...having your voice ignored and your ideas pinched.....being taunted and teased and bullied.

The result of that means that I don't want to discriminate against others who are different.

The result of that is I really hate stereotyping and do as much as possible to remove sterotypes by only focussing on sex/gender when I think it actually matters

I have boundaries that I don't think should be crossed. Fun sport is not one such boundary.

Sorry I don't know of special connotations around the phrase " special treatment" ...sorry if my choice of words has not helped

People that do parkrun compare their scores - it is only fair that women are allowed to compare like with like, should they want to.

'Parkrun is not a competition' is simply not an excuse to deny women biological categorisation. Parkrun most certainly is competitive, otherwise they wouldn't publish categories and race positions.

Discrimination is being treated unfairly...,being paid 10% less than the men..being raped...having your voice ignored and your ideas pinched.....being taunted and teased and bullied

Being bumped down the listings because you are compared with men when you thought you were just being compared with women...

Hi Lucy,

I have no legal right to ask you not to call me Cis but please know I really hate being called that and don’t do it.

Thanks.

You know, it makes me think... Life I mean.

Women have spent decades fighting for safe spaces for our sex. There is of course reasons why women need those spaces and I'm not going to get into that, they're well known.

Then... As soon as women begin to make real inroads into the equality fight, what happens? Well, men don't like it do they? I mean, the sheer cheek that women might speak up for themselves.

So, if women can go against men and start on the long road to equality, then why can't trans people, especially trans women?

The only reasons I can come up with is, they can't be bothered so appropriate women's hard won spaces. Using women's spaces validated them, they want to keep the patriarchy going.

In other words - stuff what women want, men will have their way, even in Park-run.

So if men compare against men and women against women, who do transpeople ( who do hormone and surgical procedures) compare themselves to? How is that fair? There are no third spaces. Why can't we have a non competitive event that is treated as such?

It's like you are looking for trouble

In this case the third space option would be as simple as adding another set of results categories for trans women and for trans men. They could then compare their results to the people most like themselves, physiologically, and thus get a sense of how well they're doing.