Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

@BeUpStanding

Why on earth should she enter under a different name ?

Why on earth should women accept males running in their categories? You seem to be suggesting this is all about safety but NatLuc isn't taking any steps to preserve NatLuc's safety as it seems to be the job for women to take care of that.

Um ... nope I don't see the difference. If some very unlikely transphobic aggressive peoke want to track you down, I can't imagine whether your times are recorded in the male or female category will make any difference at all. And you can use initials so there is no need for you to use a woman's name fir recording your times either. Piss poor argument

After the event when the roster is emailed, a group of transphobic degenerates looks for the 'girl' with M after her name and then tracks her down using facebook and other social media because they have her name

I don't believe this would ever ever happen

If Lucy doesn't want to be singled out or tracked via social media, then using another name would seem to be a sensible precaution, particularly as she is clearly fearful in some circumstances. What's so outrageous about that?

We were talking only a couple of weeks ago about how we should all be much more careful how much we reveal about ourselves online after the EH debacle. My real name isn't Marge.

If a transwoman wants to enjoy parkrun, and be fair to women who would like to judge their times competitively, with their biological peers within the age/sex category - they can. The two are not mutually exclusive.

You can list yourself as 'assisted' and it wouldn't put you in any danger - but would alert that you are at an advantage (biological advantage of being born male - but without actually listing yourself as male iyswim).

There's a woman who does parkrun with her dog - literally pulled along on the lead by a husky and marks herself as assisted.

My real name isn't Marge

I feel cheated

Mine is actually Rufus

AnitaLovesVictor

That would be the honourable thing to do.

I'm not really Anita, and I don't even know anyone called Victor.

Oh

Well I'm not gonna lie anita

Thats come as something of a disappointment

Anita Knight kicks ass.

Reindeers help santa

I WIN!!!!

Santa always wins

There is no category for Lucy. She is excluded. That is wrong. Except in cases where it matters ( female open plan changing areas, competitive sport, rape crisis centres, equal pay) than neither sex nor gender identity should matter.

So don't make a deal out of it. Save your powder.

In this case no female is disadvantaged in any way but there is a chance , however small youbthink it is, that the trans person could be disadvantaged.

I don't understand being trans. I worry that it's people who are different thinking that there is something wrong with them rather than with society. But unless it directly affects my equality or safety then live and let live.

Lucy has never denied having a male body. She has never insisted she is the same a natal female. She would agree I think that she wouldn't expect to enter as a women in competitive sport without some questions being asked. Why cant she live unhindered by societal expectations just like we want to ?

Why should we force her to identify as a man in situations where sex / gender is Irrelevant?

She is excluded. That is wrong. Except in cases where it matters

It matters to women who want to see how they compare within their own age/sex category.

Or don't those women matter?

Lucy can run in Parkrun - she is not excluded.

I am very gender critical and against the blind following of self id etc. However, I can also see that there are people who feel they don't conform or identify with the gender roles assigned to their sex and I have masses of sympathy and empathy with this. What I don't understand is why these people are not 'happy' with being a trans woman or trans man. They can surely not believe that they have magically become the other sex, e.g. a biological female or male.
I am digressing though. I feel uneasy about picking on an trans individual who is brave enough to do the park run, he/she/they deserve their dignity protected. On the other hand it is frustrating for biological females aka women to be pushed back and their sporting effort reduced. I really don't know the answer to this conundrum.

What I don't understand is why these people are not 'happy' with being a trans woman or trans man.

That is, ultimately, the solution, isn't it? And as I said earlier, none of us would have a problem with that. But that is a decision only they can make.

Midgebabe- agree with everything in your last post. Well said.

I am shocked and dismayed that your name is not Rufus and I begin to suspect you may not be a deer.
I live in The Bewilderness, but I do not identify as a house.

That is, ultimately, the solution, isn't it?
I believe it is. It would celebrate diversity, we could all play around with gender identity and express ourselves safe in the knowledge that biological females' rights are protected where needed, trans people feel safe and valued based on their actions, not how they present, children wouldn't need to feel pressure into taking damaging hormones. Loads of spaces in society are mixed sex and everyone is welcome. A few designated spaces are single sex, some we might do without but others are needed to ensure the safety of vulnerable individuals. Common sense can be applied and it has to be a bit of give and take. A biological female who ids as a trans man still need to be protected by law because of their reproductive system. This cannot be that difficult to organise.

What I disagree with is the move to make us all pretend that men are suddenly real women and vv. I feel that that's a slippery and dangerous slope. What else will the public be arm twisted into accepting against their better judgement?

All people matter.

Women should NOT have special treatment unless that is a proportionate response to a particular problem. The problem here is that some women want to use the published times to compare themselves to other women. They want to push transwomen to change their name and run as a man so that they can do that. That is not proportionate. Your effort or achievements in parkrun are not conditional on anyone else's achievements,

Partly because if you always want women to have special treatment you will make it impossible for women to be treated as a person first. I want to be treated as a person whose capabilities are not defined by her sex. I don't want to be constantly reminding the world of my sex, saying that we need special catagories all the time.

thebewilderness

I'm so ashamed

"why these people are not 'happy' with being a trans woman or trans man... That is, ultimately, the solution, isn't it? And as I said earlier, none of us would have a problem with that. But that is a decision only they can make."

Why? Why does the world have to wait for them to come to grip with reality?

When DD says she is a woman, I say "No darling, you are a girl. You need to be an adult to be a woman. Because Woman = Adult human female".

So why can't I tell transwomen who say they are women, "Sorry but no. You need to be female* to be a woman. Because Woman = Adult human female"?

Yes biologically* female, since there is no other way to be female but biologically.

don't want to be constantly reminding the world of my sex, saying that we need special catagories all the time

Aaahhhh

I understand

Midge - Do you know why there is such a thing as women's sport? At the Olympic Games, for example?

Hint: It's not because women are demanding "special treatment".

he problem here is that some women want to use the published times to compare themselves to other women

Why is that a 'problem "? My Parkrun results have age and sex records, so clearly they realise that some people enjoy the competitive element