Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

@Newsofas Umm, it is timed because often the time is a measure or whether one has improved themselves or not, not necessarily to do with their placement amongst others..

@OrchidInTheSun @ MargeH If I have to tell you why someone called Lucy having M as a gender/sex marker after their full name in an age of social media and tracking people down is dangerous for a trans person I don't know what to tell you..

if I was to put myself in to a group of natal woman around the same age and build as myself.. that aside from the lung and heart issue, I think that many of the other factors at this point around physiological advantage are few and far between.

You're putting aside the lungs and heart because it doesn't fit into your argument but those are important factors in performance. I don't know how tall you are or what your build is but I don't believe you don't have an advantage over women runners.

You will view that as competitive if you expect women to provide you with support and empathy, which it seems you do.

you think that I should paint a target on myself by publicly having 'M' plastered next to my full name for all 400 other runners to see? Yes. Logical. I would feel totally safe.

You said you don't pass especially not when you are running and the 400 runners presumably don't know your name so I don't see the logic in what you're saying.

Park run receive a lot of public money via grants from local councils. They need the data on sex, age etc to prove that they are inclusive. How do they support “this girl can” if they can’t prove that more women are joining in. How do they prove they are getting older people to join in if they don’t ask for age. It’s been proven that dementia can be controlled with exercise and the government has asked GPs to recommend parkrun. The govt will expect stats on ages.

X posted. How is having M next to your name dangerous? confused

Really? Really, really?! You seriously can't see that say your name is for example Jane Bloggs, look like a woman too, and on the online list you've got an M next to your name?
Nope, nope won't mark you right out as trans and vulnerable to attacks from any jeering transphobic fuckwits.

Lucy, I disagree with some of the nasty posts, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
If you are ever on a run and you see three 30 somethings jogging along having a natter you're more than welcome to join us. Don't worry, we 'screw with the stats' too by running slower than we can but enjoying the social side.

@NatLuc

Just so you're aware, many women on this board, myself included, find the word 'cis' offensive.

That’s interesting - but they could collect data to provide information for sponsors but not process/analyse/ publish all the data for runners.

You said you don't pass especially not when you are running and the 400 runners presumably don't know your name so I don't see the logic in what you're saying.

Lots do "pass." Why potentially put genuine transpeople at risk like that by publicly marking them out?

Cady - Lucy has already said that they think they don't pass. So I'm not sure how putting an M next to their name is going to make much of a difference. And I don't think you've ever been to a parkrun if you think there are 'jeering transphobic fuckwits' there. By the time those sorts of lowlifes have got out of bed, parkrunners are usually at home, enjoying lesbian cups of tea :)

If trans people are a very small percentage of the population then it won't mess up the stats around participation if Lucy is tagged as f.

If we find that blokes start to use trans as an excuse to have a lark at women's expense, screw up data, win etc that is another question.

But that is not this case. And there is nothing that Lucy can do to prevent that happening other than sacrifice herself , e.g. By being openly trans, which is unreasonable.

And I don't think you've ever been to a parkrun if you think there are 'jeering transphobic fuckwits' there.

There's been transphobic comments been made on this thread and the one before it.
So there obviously are some out there, even if hiding behind a screen saying it.
Parkrun is completely lovely and inclusive, our parkrun did one week have some rogue runners jeering at those running slower and laughing which got immediately called out and said it wouldn't be tolerated.
Not a hard jump to think that some who don't like any trans at all could say something if they were that way inclined on seeing them marked out differently.

I don't believe lots do pass. The idea that they are at risk because there is an M next to their name that no-one likely knows on a list that no-one likely looks at is not plausible. In all likelihood, by NatLuc's own description, most people who saw NatLuc running knew NatLuc was a trans identified male and yet NatLuc seems not to have faced any attacks, as with the trans identified male runner in the original thread.

@FloraFox thank you for messaging back I was actually hoping you would.

What I meant is that without the excess muscle that I had before I had hormonally transitioned I am not sure that the extra advantage from my heart and lunch would have too much effect without the extra muscle to make use of it.

I am certainly not saying it wouldn't. but at that point you can start saying 'well that cis girl is a foot taller than me so she is advantaged that way'. All I am saying is that by transitioning and being on hormones and being as lucky as I have been in the sense that I pass better, I think that the playing field has been levelled somewhat.

I am trying to say that there are a lot of possible advantages one could have.. being 'male' at birth (still am I know I know, but you get what I am trying to say) is not necessarily the most significant now I have transitioned.

I am 5'7" and a UK size 10.

@Lichtie Thank you. :)

@BeUpStanding Well given the prevalent use of deliberately hurtful acronyms I will consider not using Cis when those acronyms disappear. At least cis is not engineered to upset anyone. TIF and TIM are.

And now I am going on that run!!! Otherwise I will be here all night.

Enter under a different name then. Who is going to know?

I use an anonymous email address, and a false name/date of birth/location whenever I can, as I want my online footprint to be as small as possible.

And I sometimes give the wrong gender too, if I don't regard it as relevant.

At least cis is not engineered to upset anyone. TIF and TIM are.

Wow. CIS is most certainly engineered to keep women in their place a a subset rather than as the actual.

Urgh ffs... right... last message...

@OrchidInTheSun - I said I do not think I pass 100% but that does not mean I think I am beyond hope of people not being able to tell.

But that is not why I am replying. There is a huge difference between me being at an event with 400 people and them seeing I am trans but my identity is concealed by the fact that my gender marker is set to my acquired gender and the following scenario:

Being at parkrun with 400 people and some people can read the fact I am trans. My gender marker is set to Male. After the event when the roster is emailed, a group of transphobic degenerates looks for the 'girl' with M after her name and then tracks her down using facebook and other social media because they have her name.

Right now, people can look at me all the want on the day but after the even, they have no way of tracking me down to my name because I have set myself as female. See the difference?

NatLuc You don't have the data on your own body to support your statement. We know that men outperform women in most sports and we've seen many examples of men in their late 30s/40s/50s transitioning and winning sports events against women at the peak of their physical performance so I'm not going to put a lot of stock in your self-serving belief that you don't have an advantage over women.

Lucy is unlikely to be the best judge of whether she passes as female or not.

Whilst people seeing her may wonder , sticking a label publically on her would increase her risk. why not make it a big neon sign while you are at it? Whilst there is doubt in someone's mind that it could be a women, that will affect their behaviour. And making it public says to people " hey you have a right to know this person is trans" which highlights differences between trans and none trans, and anything that highlights differences between people unfortunately leads to increased violence between the groups of people.

At least cis is not engineered to upset anyone. TIF and TIM are.

TIF and TIM are not engineered to upset anyone, they are engineered to be careful and truthful with language.

TIF and TIM are not engineered to upset anyone.

Why on earth should she enter under a different name ? Is she a slug that should hide herself away? She should live in constant fear?

@FloraFox Great minds X-post

Well said, Midgebabe. It's akin to sticking a neon sign above your head, or marking/branding yourself different.
Just no.

After the event when the roster is emailed, a group of transphobic degenerates looks for the 'girl' with M after her name and then tracks her down using facebook and other social media because they have her name.

If this is your concern, you should not use your name in public. A number of posters have explained why they think it is problematic for you and any trans identified male who may or may not have taken any steps to transition but you are not willing to take any steps to make a compromise. You're registering as a woman, wearing "women's running wear" (lots is very gender neutral) and using an obviously female name, but at the same time you're concerned that someone will look you up on the internet afterwards and track you down because there is an M by your name?