Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

Yes I've been to several. Truthfully. And I know how proud people can be to get at the top or near the top of their group. And how proud their families are.

It might be good if ParkRun offered all runners the option of not having their stats published or included in the analysis.

Cady

Taking hormones doesn't make you female. Transwomen will always have XY chromosomes.

I think it is absolutely awful that we now live in a society where trans people are scared to be themselves

I agree Lucy. I think trans women should be absolutely accepted as they are. It shouldn't be something people feel they need to be ashamed as or hide.

I have many times. Yes there are people that don't care about their times but a huge amount of 30 something men people who do!

You can transition and take hormones to become female though.

No, you can't.

She has every bloody right to tick the woman box in that sense in a non competitive inclusive run.

The box says female, not woman. And yes, as much right as anyone has; it's based on trust.

Narcissistic supply alert?

teens, trans people (or trannies as they were pretty much always referred to as at the time) were the butt of every joke, demonised, viewed as being subhuman.

I hear that a lot but I don't remember it at all. I used to work in selfridges bra dept in the early eighties and we had many trans women coming in wanting bras. We always treated them with respect and felt quite kindly towards them. And cross dressing is a great British institution!

I remember mother in laws being the butt of every joke. I seriously don't remember "trannies" as you say being demonised. In fact if you weren't cross dressing you weren't welcome in most London clubs in the 80s!

At my local park run, the fastest woman comes in at 19th. She has done for ages. Imagine a new trans woman runner joining and just destroying her record, just to satisfy some internal dialogue. It would be bloody shit and cruel.

And yet that's what being proposed. Let's shit on women's achievements because men who feel like women are more important.

Lucy - you're welcome at parkrun obviously. You could record your gender as male, given that PR state: "Along with Date of Birth, we ask for your gender to categorise our results correctly (by sex and age)."

so they mean sex rather than gender. Your sex is male, not female.

Run as far and as fast as you can. But compete against males, not females. And if that means you're a bit shit and bottom of the heap, then deal with it. Don't make women feel a bit shit and bottom of the heap by identifying as female.

Narcissistic supply alert?

Is that code for "pssst, stop talking to the transwoman, you'll encourage her to stay!"?

Christ, it's like being at school. And not in a good way.

ratrolypoly I agree. It's a personal attack.

Cady can you please stop telling me and others that park run isn’t competitive. It is a timed 5k event - of course it is competitive otherwise why time the run? Let’s all just run round a park instead and not time it - no thanks and I think all men will opt out and a lot of women will too. Blimey even my teenage kids have to beat me and their mates at parkrun.

Shame you've ignored all the posts talking directly to Lucy ratroly

Actually I think Cady is half right - some runners do it for the camaraderie and support, rather than competitively. Doesn't mean it is fair for them to fuck up the stats for those that are competitive though.

@FloraFox I think that if that is how you took my post then there is nothing I can do to change that. All I can say is that I do have a lot of empathy for the situation because as I addressed in my followup message to others, I think that the topic is such a delicate one. All I have tried to put across was that if I was to put myself in to a group of natal woman around the same age and build as myself.. that aside from the lung and heart issue, I think that many of the other factors at this point around physiological advantage are few and far between. I am not however closed off to discussion as to why this is not the case? But instead you chose to be combative..

@Alienspaceship You chose to take it that way, that was not my intent. I was simply saying that if we are talking about 10% differences, once you add the experience I have had in change of what I remembered my ability being like, that 10% would likely shrink further.. I can't be sorry for you choosing to take what I said in the darkest shade possible but But I can assure you it is not what I intended. I would be happy to try and reword it for you?

@M0RVEN And whilst I have not been raped or sexually assaulted what gives you the right to have assumed I had not been? I have had the good fortune of not being subjected to those horrific acts and would not wish them on anyone but I have been touched up and groped, jeered at, catcalled, you name it. many times both before and after transitioning. Frankly I find it disgusting that you would imply that it would not have happened to me. Trans or Cis.

Part of the reason I run later at night is because it is darker. You might think 'well why would you take that risk' and the answer is simply because it is harder to tell that I am not any other regular cis female out for a run. However that does not mean that I ever felt safe. like you said, constantly re-evaluating the situation and I am not just talking about running.

I feel at risk every single time I leave the house. It is the first thing I think about when I reach for my front door; 'is today going to be the day that some group of upstarts realises I am trans and decides to beat me up or worse'. How about YOU have some empathy for the fact that trans people have to consider the exact same things that many cis women also have to do. Believe me I have plenty of empathy for cis woman and the risk of being attacked (sexually or otherwise) because I also have to worry about those things.

All I was trying to convey is that it took me a LONG time to get over my fear of wearing female exercise gear because it made me feel more exposed and vulnerable than then I had my makeup applied and could compensate for typically male traits my body/face does have. I was not trying to belittle cis women in any way. Simply that for me, I was proud of myself.

@MargeH - Yourself included I would presume. Do you think I walk around the store room at work with my dress hitched up staring at myself? Get over yourself. If you had read my comment thoroughly I acknowledged that biologically I am male but that I am a woman AND a trans woman. Meaning that colloquially speaking I regard myself as a woman but however more specifically a trans woman because unfortunately I was born with the wrong plumbing. Thanks for the reminder. :)

@jellyfrizz- Thank you for having a more tempered and thoughtful response than some of the others, I was not even going to reply again until I saw some of the other replies.

I think that having other boxes when the incidence rate of trans people would be pointless. As I mentioned, assuming 400 people and an incidence rate of 0.5% and then making an assumption that the other trans person was a trans man... that means I would be singling myself out to compete with exactly no one else. I would come first and last in my 'category'. As I mentioned in my other message, I think that at a pro level.. other considerations need to be made and I am glad that professional sporting bodies have the ability to make a judgement call on whether or not a person can compete.

@CadyHeron - Thank you for the support. :)

So luckily Lucy didn't come first so perhaps we can cross those bridges if we come to them rather than getting very defensive over what should be an inclusive rather than competitive event.

she isn't trying to benefit over anyone in anyway. She isn't using parkrun to abuse women or gain access to women's spaces. She isn't trying to make women feel shit. She's just running. At an event where she is forced to give a binary gender. That's not her fault.

@OrchidInTheSun SO to be clear, on a publicly posted score roster you think that I should paint a target on myself by publicly having 'M' plastered next to my full name for all 400 other runners to see? Yes. Logical. I would feel totally safe.

I agree with cady

Parkrun is not competitive - they're delighted that the average time is now lower, because it means greater inclusion and participation.

Yes it's timed, but the aim is for each runner to know their own time and see if they improve. But it doesn't matter one stuff whether they do or don't. The only awards are annually at each Parkrun, one or two people named as most significant contribution. They usually go, not to the fastest or most improved runners, but to those who encourage, volunteer and run/walk as well.

Now Parkrun can't stop people getting competitive about the results, and I've seen more on this thread than I've ever noticed in RL. But that doesn't mean that Parkrun (still headed by the founder) is a competitive event. There's nothing about the times (other than that it is (gun) timed) and a huge amount about the community.

Parkrun is as competitive as.you.make it

Runners shouldn’t have to give their sex or share data on their times in order to run.

X posted. How is having M next to your name dangerous?

Why on earth would you ever feel unsafe on a Parkrun?

Parkrun could easily have a 'prefer not to say' option, which would then allow the non-competitive runners to opt out of the stats, without having to say why.

Lucy isn’t “stealing space”: she has said she is not a speedy runner. A small number of transwomen who are your average parkrun joggers and categorised as female in the stats aren’t going to disadvantage many or even any women. It would be unethical though were a fast transwoman to “win” and be amongst the fastest in the category for women.