Holy moly I was not expecting so many replies, this might take a while to reply (I also need to go for a run tonight - lol) But I will do my best.
Just also want to say that I am happy to be here and than you for the warm welcome I have received thus far.
@Lancelottie My main problem with a 'third category' is that is it very much not good enough. You would end up with trans men (some of which would be using testosterone and trans women some of whom would be also on HRT, and it just would not really be a good way to do it. for a start, the approach just dumps all trans people in to one bucket and says 'get on with it, we don't care that you are potentially more akin to your acquired gender'. I do however appreciate that (particularly in the case of pre HRT trans women) you have the potential for serious ability skewing.. and for this reason and this reason alone I think that it is right that professional sporting bodies can discriminate based on birth sex but ONLY where it is deemed that the trans individual truly does have an unfair advantage and this is to be determined on a case by case basis. BUT for amateur stuff?? No. No one should have to 'out' themselves. But at professional levels where it is careers and money involved.. totally but only if the reasoning is policy and process driven with strict and robust measures in place to ensure fairness truly is the end goal.
I am sorry if that is not a satisfactory answer.. I think it is was pretty poorly worded..
@AncientLights - Thank you for the warm welcome! And yes... I would love a good opportunity to discuss it as I will be honest, I think my understanding of everything that has happened with it is very superficial..
@CadyHeron - Thank you! It was a lovely response and I will be honest it made me realise how ridiculous it was to worry in the first place. Since coming out and transitioning I have moved on in many ways but also trying to make new friendship groups. Using 'Meetups' has been my main way of finding stuff to do and in pretty much every case, I have sent a prefacing message asking if the group is inclusive of trans people and I think that is such a sad thing to have to do but the email I got back from Parkrun has made me realise I need to stop caring what people think. I am a human being and a good person and with ANY social activity that is what should matter. Not what is or isn't between my legs or whether I am XX or XY.
@sanluca - Hello, thank you for the welcome, I think you have kind of hit the nail on the head in a way. The point is that you cannot tell someone's ability by looking at them so why be prejudice? First of all though, the only person I compete with when I run is myself. I might sprint to the finish line and overtake a couple people, but this is not to beat anyone other than myself from previous runs and to push myself. I am not competing with other people, it is a fun run not a bonafide race. The timings and stats that Parkrun provides are for reference only IMO.
There are so many factors that influence a persons ability. However when we are talking about a margin of 10% in non-HRT augmented people, should we really be discounting the 90% that is the effort that person exerts and the training they have put in to it? Especially when like I mentioned in my original post, having been on HRT for the last 8 and a bit months, as well as having basically not actively exercised for 6 years I am at no advantage really and like I said there are even aspects of having already been through male puberty that are potentially a serious detriment.
Ultimately there are many ways someone might be born with a natural born advantage over someone else. One of my house mates (natal female) is 4 years older than me but she can run circles around me in cross country... I do not however feel badly done to, I put it down to the training and effort and work she has put in to herself.
I do think that you are right in the sense of discussion but I think your 'us and them' approach to the topic is a little rigid. Especially considering the level of running being discussed. I think I came around 65th as far as female ranking is concerned. Out of 160 ish (I do not want to say too much as I believe these timings to be of public record?). I have seen it written many times on these forums that is is not the average trans woman that is the problem. And I would say that I am far from exceptional in any way. Plus... when you consider there were around 400 people at my parkrun... at an incidence of like 0.5% of the population (I know it is slightly higher than that but just for the purpose of my point) that means that statistically there would maybe have only been one other trans person there. Have we REALLY robbed anyone of anything?
Again, I think perhaps I am waffling and not replying very well.. I do want to say that I would in no way want you to feel that I am trying to bully my thoughts on to you or to strip away importance through any means of what you are saying. Obviously trans people are a very diverse bunch and I think that the pre/post HRT issue to me is the biggest factor... but I am not sure that telling a trans person they need to compete with their birth sex is right. Even if competing was the theme, It would be heartless when all trans people (I think) truly want is to be accepted within either a sisterhood or brotherhood (I can smell the cheese from just typing it.. sorry..) and with cis women saying 'well we don't want you' and pushing us to the cis men who then go 'well we don't want you either' it just sets a tone of hopelessness.
@Scabbersley - Thank you! If I poorly worded that I apologise, I did not mean to imply that all natal women show a lack of empathy.. It is just from what I have seen and read think that a lot of the time, loose fingers type without thinking about the effect those words may have on people.. I mean.. part of the reason I transitioned at 27 is because when I was younger, early teens, trans people (or trannies as they were pretty much always referred to as at the time) were the butt of every joke, demonised, viewed as being subhuman.. So I hid.. Whenever I read TIM or TIF for example, though accurate in their definition, are lacking in empathy. I think a lot of people forget that trans people are exactly that... people.. I do not see the need for callous language when trans man and trans woman at the very least conveys the same information but in a more sensitive and thoughtful way. Though with a couple bad eggs I can see the defensive action as understandable I think it is dangerous. I feel like I have well and truly gone off topic now.. I am sure we will get the chance to have a more centred conversation some time in another thread. :)
@Tinycitrus - Hello!! I think this is a question I can get back on topic with!! I completely understand the worry. I will address your final point first; I think it is absolutely awful that we now live in a society where trans people are scared to be themselves but equally... I think it is a crying shame that cis people (I hate using it in this context..) are scared to ask questions. Personally I want people to ask me questions because I think that the only way these important discussions will happen is once there is a mutual level of understanding because I think a lot of the issues trans people face are just not understood by average people and as a result it breeds animosity through a lack of awareness..
I mean.. I was not particularly sporty as school, mainly because I was bullied by the people that played sports so I guess in a way it poisoned me against sports.. but if I am honest.. my answer to this is basically that if there were fewer obstacles in the way of affording trans kids the chance to use puberty blockers (not cross sex hormones) then there were would not be an issue? I think something many people forget is that puberty blockers are used on cis kids too if they start puberty too early. I am not going to go in to my beliefs as to why I think this should be the case as it is the wrong thread.. but if kids were able to hit that pause button then there would be no natal born advantage or disadvantage? So as far as keeping young natal girls engaged with sports is concerned (which I think is incredibly important) I genuinely believe that this is a case of where better policy for one group has a positive affect on another (the latter being young cis girls).
Happy to be messaged about this one if you would like to go in to it as it is something I believe in quite strongly.
@LangCleg - Hello :) Ultimately? Quite simply because I do not believe I was assisted. Like I said, I have lost a significant amount of muscle and yet retain a heavier frame.. not to mention the fact that I have to push harder and recover more slowly than before I was on hormones and younger. I do not feel that being born male has at this point given me any quantifiable advantage now that I have the hormone profile of a natal female and also probably only slightly more muscle but that is neither here nor there as there were plenty of (presumably) natal women at Parkrun who were much more in shape than I. Also without meaning to be pedantic but the tables are segregated by gender and not sex - which I believe is all part of them being inclusive.
@Thanksforthatamazingpost - Thank you! I look forward to having discussions in the future in the spirit of learning (two way street). :)
I apologise if people have said anything to me since I started typing this however I will have to read back later an reply haha.
Genuinely looking forward to having conversations about this and other topics though. Thank you for the warm welcome, I feel the nerves have subsided and you are all not as scary as I thought you might be. :p