Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

No, I really don't. Stupid comments like that help nobody.

Anita, honest to who? If people aren't competing and there are no rules who is being cheated.
Some people run as fast as they can, some jog round in groups and talk, some treat it as light training and don't compete.... Are they being dishonest and ruining the results by not trying?

Some people run as fast as they can, some jog round in groups and talk, some treat it as light training and don't compete.... Are they being dishonest and ruining the results by not trying?

No because there is no category for trying and not really trying. If there were then yes it would be wrong to enter the not trying category but then try really hard.

There is a category for male and female though.

If it was non competitive no results would be published or stats provided on runners’ performance in different categories.

Transwomen (and intersex people) having unfair biological advantages is primarily an issue in elite sport - less likely to disadvantage others at ParkRun, unless lots of transwomen and men identify in the women’s category and get better times than women. But men and transwomen’s wishes to run in the women’s category shouldn’t be prioritised over women’s interests.

Okay, so I have lurked on MN for a while now. I am a trans woman, 28 (not that it matters). Obviously, some of you will misgender or deliberately refer to me in ways that are designed to cause hurt but I am not here to have a conversation with those types, I want to genuinely offer my thoughts on this as I agree that it is an incredibly important topic.

This thread peaked my interest, so much so that I made this account to actually type a comment, I actually participated in my first ever Parkrun on Saturday just gone (28th April). It had not even occurred to me at the time that there would be people out there that might object to me putting female as my gender marker. I even emailed ahead to my local Parkrun support address basically 'asking if it is okay given that I am trans' to attend. The reply I got was one of sadness that 'I had to ask for permission'. Surely you can all agree that it is a sad state of things when someone has to ask for permission to attend a public event because they are scared they are going to be lynched or jeered at for just trying to get fit and healthy (but more on this later).

I will say this now so that there is no confusion later - yes I accept that biologically I am male. Nothing is going to change my chromosomes. However, I do still regard myself as a woman. A trans woman, but a woman nonetheless. Oh and I do not have a GRC. I socially transitioned towards the end of last year and I began hormones in August so I have a way to go yet before I can apply. I still have the bits I was born with.

It probably means nothing to most of you, however, my current (as of April 2018) testosterone and estrogen levels are:

T = 0.724 nmol/L
E = 501 pmol/L

Pre HRT (2017) levels:

T = 22.1 nmol/L
E = 198 pmol/L

Those numbers will be significant later in my post.

After dragging my eyes through this thread (14 pages at the time I finished), I feel exhausted and if you would permit me, I would like to offer my two pence from a number of perspectives.

Firstly, if looking at this purely from a sociological standpoint reading what some people have said about the GRC.. I find it absolutely insulting and almost laughable that the average Joe Public/Jane Doe puts so much significance in the GRC. The reason I find it insulting is that I should not have to wave a piece of paper around to earn some semblance of dignity in my life or to gain a minimum level of respect just to be seen as a token woman.

I might have been male at birth but that does not make me a man. At least not now. I guess a lot of TRAs might have a problem with me saying that as it may offend a number of trans women who have not transitioned, and to be honest it does not quite sit right with me either since I too was in their position at one point but I have socially transitioned and I want to apologise to any trans people out there reading this - I do not mean to belittle you or dress down your struggle but I need to try and make this post somewhat logical to the topic at hand.

I know I do not 100% pass, in fact when I run, I wear no makeup at all, exactly like most cis women wouldn't, and yes, I get a few stares if I am free running and I certainly got some stares at Parkrun but so what. Yes I was wearing standard women's workout gear, I was not wearing anything inappropriate and I held my head up high, it took me a heck of a long time to get over my fear of wearing women's workout gear whilst also being barefaced but I am proud of myself and I have stopped caring what other people, who don't know me think.

Frankly, I don't care that I do not 100% pass. Passing is not what being trans is about. I am not trying to appease anyone's sensibilities by appearing to be 100% passable. I am living my life for me. I am prettier than a lot of cis girls and I am less pretty than a lot. That is life.

What I do care about is that the general consensus I am getting from this thread and indeed from MN on the whole is that the only way many of you will give me any shred of dignity is if I can wave around a piece of paper after sitting in front of a panel of cisgender bureaucrats and pen-pushers deciding whether or not I have jumped through enough hoops to be seen as a woman in law. I mean come on. I understand that there are people out there who use being trans as a means to inflict harm (or in this thread's case - to cheat their way to the top) and try to get away with it but do you really, truly and honestly believe that is the way that most of us think when we click that 'F' box on a sign up form on a website?

I just want to live my life.

Male and Female have biological significance but I certainly am not a man.

Which leads me on to my second point. I would grant you that there is certainly an advantage to being cis/natal men against cis/natal women when it comes to running. However when you look at some of the facts (at least in my short afternoon of link reading I hope they are accurate), particularly at park run level the difference in performance is only around 10%. At marathon level, it does seem to increase further but for the reasons I am going to talk about, I do not think that it would apply to a lot trans women.

This is where the hormone levels I mentioned earlier come in to play. I will preface this next bit with the fact that this is purely anecdotal and I guess I am trying to draw an understanding purely from my own experience but I hope that you will at least entertain the thought process behind it.

Also to backpedal a little, around 6 years ago whilst I was at university I used to run a lot, I used to do 6 runs per week, each 12km in distance and in a time of roughly an hour. Nothing mightily impressive, I was recovering from being overweight and using the running as a method of weight loss/management and also to help with my mental health. I was also doing a testosterone steroid cycle around this time because I was overcompensating and trying to bury the 'transness' by being hyper-masculine - obviously, this will have to some extent affected my performance but I was running these distances at this frequency before the steroid cycle, I just thought it was worth mentioning.

In the 8 and a half or so months, I have been on hormones, I have lost a significant amount of muscle. Not just on my upper body but also my legs and people that have asked me if I would show them pre-transition photos cannot believe that it is the same person. A sibling perhaps but they cannot believe how different I am now to then.

If I can get you to have a look at this link:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Blood_values_sorted_by_mass_and_molar_concentration.png

And this link:

www.ohio-forum.com/2015/03/running-why-are-men-faster-than-women/

You will see that my hormone levels are significantly different from what nature originally intended for me. However, the drastic difference in my testosterone levels is obviously behind the muscle that I have lost. I would probably argue that most natal women have higher testosterone than me and it is for this reason that I would like to point out that trans women (at least those that have not retained a significantly masculine frame or build) do not really have an advantage over natal women. Because I am unable to retain muscle and I have lost so much, I would argue that if anything, I am at a disadvantage. For two reasons:

1. The human body (regardless of biological sex) requires either testosterone or estrogen to maintain bone integrity and fend off osteoporosis. It doesn't care which, either will do. But because I went through male puberty first, my skeleton is larger and heavier than a natal girl my equivalent size. I am a UK size 10 for reference. And with estrogen, I have retained my bone density.

1. My now 'female range' estrogen levels predispose me to store fat, not going to say much about this other than I know that it sucks.

But these two points combined with having to try incredibly hard to maintain muscle puts me at a disadvantage against an equivalent natal female. I am heavier and I have less muscle to be able to carry the extra load.

So does having a 'typically larger' heart or set of lungs really give me much of an advantage which my hormone profile is so vastly different from a 'mans' profile? I would absolutely say that a trans woman who is on her way to similar levels or at least levels that replicate the same physiological homeostasis for that individual is no better off than anyone else of sex that the trans person is striving to live as.

I only began running again about 2 weeks ago and like I said, this was my first Parkrun ever. I am not looking to deceive anyone or strip them of a ranked position they felt they were more entitled to than me. I am just looking to get fit, healthy, manage my mental health and get my finish time as well as have some fun. But honestly... I think that when you consider the hormonal differences of a typical trans woman who is transitioning (whether through HRT, GRS or ultimately a combination of both) there is very little 'advantage' in it. I recover more slowly, I definitely cant push as hard as I could in the past and I certainly do not think that I belong competing with the males.

If it matters... I finished around 240 our of 390 runnings Only just getting below 30 mins for my 5km. Soo.. not exactly professional level running.

I just want to finish off by saying that I do think this is an important topic to discuss and that censorship is the wrong way to go about it. But I also think that the level of empathy that has been shown by many members posting in this thread is awful.

Not sure what reception this post will get, probably a bad one but it was typed from a perspective of wanting to at least give my opinion as a trans woman on this topic because it struck home with me given the proximity to the time I ran in a Parkrun myself.

Also, I apologise for the incoherent flow of this post? Given the general reception I have ready some trans people get, I am a little nervous about pressing 'Post'. Definitely not my best piece of persuasive writing...

Lucy

Hi Lucy
Skim reading here, but what is it about feeling you are no longer a man that makes you feel you are a woman?
You said that it’s not about the stereotypes. It’s not about passing. It’s not about the legal position of a GRC. And it’s not your actual sex, which you acknowledge is male (thank goodness for straight talking).
What’s the problem, in your view, with a third category?

Lucy I just want to say welcome and thanks for the post. I'm totally unsporty myself, don't get it at all, but there we go, not all the same are we? If you've lurked for a while you will know that a massive bugbear with posters here on MN is the lack of discussion about what's going on with the hole GRA thing - I'm actually now quite fearful of the future. So again thanks for posting, I do hope you'll stick around.

NatLuc great post
So glad parkrun were lovely and supportive when you mentioned to them. Shows it honestly doesn't matter and it's for everyone.
They're so lovely to everyone wanting to get out and exercise.

Hi Lucy, welcome. Thanks for your detailed explanation but I don't think that was necessary. I understand you wanted to compete and you don't see yourself as advantaged but truth is we don't know.

We don't know how low or high the level of testosterone is of a competing transwomen, we don't know their level of fitness, we don't even know what the influence of other factors in the differences in biology between men or women are. But maybe to try to keep it fair for women, transwomen should be a separate category? Instead of just telling women to accept it and we'll see if it actually was unfair later?

See where I am going with this? Maybe Parkrun and other organisations shouldn't just decide to change the playing field for women without actually asking women if they mind? It is the fact that people demand, then bully, then no debate that is polarizing the discussion and pushing people away from each other.

A very erudite post and welcome natluc

I think a lot of women, I'm afraid me included, don't like being accused of lack of empathy when all they want to do is discuss the issues. I agree some posters overstep the mark into rudeness, but sometimes women (natal born women) actually, shock horror, want to put themselves first.

"it's for everyone"

Hear, hear.

I would not want to see Parkrun change, because some runners want it to have a different, more competitive set up. But I think Parkrun is pretty clear that it wants to stay inn-competitive and inclusive.

I liked reading the blog post on their site about Birmingham Swifts. That is inclusivity in action.

Lucy thank you for that. and I hope you find peace with yourself.

what bothers me about transwomen in sport is what does this represent for young natal women coming up through sport?

For example a teen natal girl playing football against a teen trans woman who lets face it will have physical advantages. What does this mean to a teen natal girl who is already socialised that football isn’t for her? Does she accept the transgender girl is just ‘better’ then her? Same with tennis, athletics etc.

I do t have any axe to grind against trans people but these are questions which are never answered and really we are not even supposed to ask.

I realise it’s tactless to aim direct equestrians about a third category at someone mid transition and heavily invested in the process - maybe I should ask it of someone more settled in their transition like TruScum (wish you’d name change!) or Pidge if still around.

Equestrians?? Ffs phone, have some common sense.

Nobody wants it to have a more competitive set up

It can be competitive though - try telling the age 35 male category it's not competitive

Hi Lucy. Welcome.

What is wrong with marking yourself as assisted so that women can meaningfully compare themselves to others in their age and sex category, as Parkrun encourages them to do?

Hi Lucy,

I can't agree with everything you said (I don't want to mislead you and yes it can be pretty robust round here - I've ended up in tears before) but I'm very glad that you posted and you are welcome here.

For example a teen natal girl playing football against a teen trans woman who lets face it will have physical advantages. What does this mean to a teen natal girl who is already socialised that football isn’t for her? Does she accept the transgender girl is just ‘better’ then her? Same with tennis, athletics etc.

Lucy said the exact opposite - that they are at a disadvantage than women. So the girls have an advantage that the trans identifying boys so not have.

What is wrong with marking yourself as assisted so that women can meaningfully compare themselves to others in their age and sex category, as Parkrun encourages them to do?

Or don't declare your sex?

However, I do still regard myself as a woman. A trans woman, but a woman nonetheless.

And therein lies the problem.

If you said you regarded yourself as a transwoman, I doubt anyone here on MN would have a problem.

But many of us have an issue with the whole concept that 'transwomen are women', and whilst I feel very sympathetic towards your current situation and wish you every happiness in the future, it would be disingenuous of us to say 'ok, Lucy, that's fine'

Because it's not.

NatLuc You've personalised this issue so much with your anecdata it's pretty hard to respond without being personal.

Your overall point seems to be that you don't think you have a physiological advantage over women but you don't really care. I don't see much empathy from you for the position or views of women. Why do you expect empathy from posters on this board? I don't understand why you feel you want to run this race in the women's category and I don't share your feelings, so no, I am not empathetic. I don't understand why you think you are not a man or what you think it means to be a woman (particularly the relevance of your view that you think you are prettier than a lot of women).

"It can be competitive though"

Yup, but that's not what Parkrun is really about. And even the 'competitive' know that, not least because of the amount of merciless teasing they let themselves in for.

It would be a shame if they changed the amount of info they provided. But I can't see how they can continue publishing results as they do, if Parkrunners themselves really are unhappy and want the event to change. It would mean that the expectation that it needs to be competitive is the one has won out, and I think that's a shame.

What @FloraFox said

All of us, Me, Lucy, the Parkrun people, all of us were brought up never to wonder whether it was ok for women to budge up because budging up is what women do.

That's the problem.

it's a mighty shock for us to meet a bunch of radical feminists who don't accept this.