Your peaktrans moment for today! Top this if you can.

[Ritzsaltedcrackers]

A woman was thrown out of a FB feminist group for challenging the idea that transwomen get periods.

apparently they DO get periods just without the small aspect of bleeding.

She was told that she was minimising transwomen's periods.

www.facebook.com/beth.rep/posts/10216741083464856

Why hold women to that standard, Maisy?
It's not about holding women to that standard of always being nice and timid. It's about thinking of the end game and outcomes
If people look at what the TRA lobby are doing then people getting arsey or goady etc doesn't help.
E.g. why deliberately misgender someone to score points when it will just get screenshot, shared and used as 'proof' that MN/feminism has a transphobia problem?
There are so many ways to challenge this increasingly dominant ideology without providing TRA activists with stuff to helps them present this victim narrative they re creating

And I disagree that what you're suggesting is what we need to win this. You can of course make whatever decisions make sense to you in terms of how you speak about this stuff, but you don't have the right to exercise control over how other women express ourselves.

We can't call adult males he because it's not polite.

We can't talk about women's bodies because not all women have those experiences and it's exclusionary.

We can't comment on TIM behaviour because not all TIM do that, and we can find an example of someone, somewhere doing something worse.

We can have no words to discribe female experience because words change meaning over time.

We can't talk about women and our experiences because we will be in danger of being an echo chamber and not centring men.

It's best all round if we just stop talking.

Havoc
But surely you can see there is a difference between saying (for example).

"Biological fact is that biological men do not have the required body parts to have a period and a full menstrual cycle"
And
(When discussing someone identifying as a transwoman who has posted something stupid and inflamatory)
" Just look at Joe Bloggs on Twitter. HE talks absolute nonsense."
Like when people to score point started calling LM Liam. Why? Isn't it better to debate the issues at hand than get involved in low point scoring.

Can only speak for myself but I'm going to continue talking about women's experiences, continue to hold there are biological differences and continue to have an issue with TRA. They may not like everything that's said. They may claim that any challenge or question is violent (don't get that logic) but the focus is on the issues, not low point scoring.

Play the ball not the , err, man ...

I can see your point, Maisypops. Antagonising people doesn’t help the (reasonable) message land.

However, if I were - for example - discussing evolution with a creationist, I wouldn’t change my language to accommodate their world view. I think if I did that, it would create an impression that both world views are equally grounded in facts and worthy of being taken seriously.

Masie, if you think that other women speaking more bluntly than is your preference are "point scoring" then you may be having difficulty understanding the fact that different people have different personalities and this has an impact on how they express themselves. Your framing of this reflects how you see the world and how you prefer to communicate, not some sort of universal truth.

(Also, porting this disagreement over to another thread was pretty bad form and not really going high, imo.)

When this applies to the wider world, the people most likely to misgender are men. Not 'woke' men, just regular guys in the workplace. When they get pulled up on it, they will blame feminists and women for creating a ridiculous PC society, and so the cycle of hatred will continue.

SporadicSpartacus
Exactly.
Debate the idea. And where possible be as explicit as possible.

So when discussing biological differences, keep he/she etc. Clarify that men = Biological adult male.

But if in general discussion, why purposefully try to get points by calling Davina 'Dave'? Or say they are deluded?

I think the idea of keep my male biology, don a dress, date a woman, make some youtube clips and claim I am a lesbian is an illogical and silly point of view. It can be debated without making persobal digs at the person spouting those views.

AngryAttackKittens
It's not about being blunt. It's about taking the debate first over personal attacks.

I don't claim to have some universal truth. I do think that if people on the fringes of debate turn up here and see more digs and less debate then they may be less likely to find out more about the issues

There's so much to debate without playing into the hands of TRAs.

I draw a comparison between debating religon vs comments about the believer and debating periods vs comments about the person claiming men have periods to another thread in the same feminism board.

It’s difficult.

‘Dave, you’re not a lesbian or a woman’, vs ‘Davina, you’re not a lesbian or a woman’

I think Davina would be pretty unhappy with both, tbh. The fact remains she isn’t a homosexual female. There isn’t really a nice way to say it and still remain true to the facts.

For some of us it is in fact about being blunt and not forcing ourselves to speak in ways that are unnatural for us. Again, your interpretation of other women's motives isn't as infallible as you appear to believe. Nor is instructing other women on the way you would like them to express themselves particularly feminist.

It's possible that I'm the only woman here who's getting very tired of the constant attempts to tone police other commenters, but I doubt it.

I think Davina would be pretty unhappy with both, tbh. The fact remains she isn’t a homosexual female. There isn’t really a nice way to say it and still remain true to the facts

In fact bending over backwards to try not to offend individuals like Davina tends to result in them upping the attempts to control what you can and can't say, as happened to the unfortunate woman in the OPs post who tried her absolute best to be kind and inoffensive and got hounded and banned anyway. This is a pattern that can be observed in all kinds of spaces where TRAs operate - the more willingness women show to compromise the harder they push.

When they get pulled up on it, they will blame feminists and women for creating a ridiculous PC society, and so the cycle of hatred will continue

Exactly. I’ve read men calling this whole thing some sort of ‘battle of the minorities’ as to who is the ‘biggest victim’.

(The fact they consider women to be a ‘minority’ says it all really).

I don't necessarily disagree with what maisy is saying

But there is a difference between purposly misgendering and AN ERRENT FUCKING 'HE' SLIPPING INTO WHAT WAS PROBABLY AN ERUDITE, INTERESTING AND MEASURED POST WHICH GETS DELETED IN FULL

Its unreasonable its holding people to an incredibly high standard

Id have no problem with severe warnings, id have no problem with a heads up so the poster could edit, id have no problem with it being removed and the poster being given a copy so they can redo

IF is was a 'he' in datuns post it was obviously an accident have you seen some of the grammar and spelling mistakes on here!!

I dont envy MNHQ

I quite understand that they may have to read an entire thread and delete everything possible

I get that i really do

(The fact they consider women to be a ‘minority’ says it all really).

Well, I mean, we're only 52%...

(so much for it being women who're bad at maths)

This probably links in with that study that found that when women speak 30% of the time men think we're dominating the conversation.

There are herds of MRAs ploughing through and reporting whatever they can. MNHQ are only going to respond and if they target something in particular then it is likely to get deleted from volume not content.

I think it's pretty clear that HQ aren't actively moderating, they're just responding to reports as they come in. Actively moderating would require a lot more mods.

Now my concern is that will the government start telling me that black is white and if I dare to question that then I will be arrested and prosecuted. It's very much like 1984 and it terrifies me to be honest.

YY. It's very wrong to go down this route.

I agree with both terf and angry

I was trying to post that but i had to delete my posts due to the use of aggressive swearing and threats of violence

Wait, Rufus, I thought that you were giving me the sigh of disapproval for taking the piss out of turn?

But if in general discussion, why purposefully try to get points by calling Davina 'Dave'? Or say they are deluded?

Because thinking male people who think they have periods are deluded is a reasonable view which would be held by 99% of the population?

It's not "point scoring" as pp have said. It's how different people express themselves. Stop expecting women (and only women) to walk on eggshells.

Oh plus

We have all seen it before

Government announcements

'The majority of the public are behind...

When actually people have just stopped talking about it, or are just meh about it, or have been stopped talking about it

We see it on here as well

Most transwomen pass and are fully accepted in ladies toilets and always have been, you dont even notice they are they thats how well they blend

When actually the vast majority of women wouldnt say anything to their face, dont always stare and certainly wouldnt make them leave the bogs...COS ITS POLITE