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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Your peaktrans moment for today! Top this if you can.

388 replies

Ritzsaltedcrackers · 25/04/2018 13:21

A woman was thrown out of a FB feminist group for challenging the idea that transwomen get periods.

apparently they DO get periods just without the small aspect of bleeding.

She was told that she was minimising transwomen's periods.

www.facebook.com/beth.rep/posts/10216741083464856

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 26/04/2018 22:51

It's funny, you're exactly the sort of person I would associate with the words "tell it like it is". We're all different!

AngryAttackKittens · 26/04/2018 22:53

The funniest thing about the assertion that this board has too hostile a tone is that AIBU is a bloodbath in comparison, but apparently that's OK because not everyone there is a feminist. So, be rude as fuck, openly criticize others commenters, swear like a sailor - all this is fine as long as it's only women whose feelings you're not being careful of.

LangCleg · 26/04/2018 22:57

Different voices reach different people.

That's how I see it.

I'd been reading here for a few weeks before I posted. I had a handle on the regulars - who was stroppy, who was blunt, who was hardline, who wasn't, who was interested in what and who had specialist knowledge or activist experience to bring.

It's ludicrous to think that women's rights and any possible conflict with trans rights can be simplified into one feminist voice or one (unnatural to most) tone.

And anyway. I am here because I want to talk with other women about protecting women's rights, spaces and services, and the safeguarding of children.

I'm really not that fussed about who is nicer than me and who is stroppier than me. I'm really not that fussed if people who are reading think I'm the nice one or I'm the mean one. I'm interested in the conversations I'm having with other women and refining my thinking on the topics we talk about. If outsiders take something from it then that's great. But it's not my focus.

CharlieParley · 26/04/2018 22:58

Angry my friend abhors Mumsnet for that reason - I think AIBU is just a logical place to gravitate to as there's always lots of posts. She thinks it's mental how they all lay into one another.

Before I recently started posting myself I'd been lurking for about a decade - I had other forums I posted on and simply didn't fancy joining such a combative site.

Never even looked at the feminist boards, not sure I was even aware they existed. So I was pleasantly surprised when I started reading them. Intelligent, articulate discussion of women's rights issues. What a welcome haven of sanity after AIBU and the parenting/relationship boards...

leggere · 26/04/2018 22:58

Maisy, if you have a problem with pupils, sorry posters not agreeing with you, feel free to move away.

Datun · 26/04/2018 23:00

I might be more willing to listen if anyone could point me towards any law change or culture change that was achieved through being nice.

The huge pushback that the MeToo campaign got is evidence that even with an overwhelming statistic of 11 million posts in under 24 hours, women were still disbelieved. Not listened to.

Making rape within marriage illegal, in 1992, had taken fifteen years. FIFTEEN fucking years of women asking, lobbying, campaigning, writing. No one listened.

Being nice might sound as though it will attract people to feminism. It won't. Because what feminists want is always awkward for society. It upsets the power dynamic that many people, including women, want to maintain.

It's only in hindsight that everyone goes well of course those laws are right and correct, dur.

If you want to be nice about feminism, it won't be feminism that you're attracting people to. It will be some kind of feminism lite. That will achieve fuck all.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/04/2018 23:00

Being serious for a moment, I think the lesson here is that just because a women is quite rightfully concerned about the overreaches of trans activism that doesn't mean she's necessarily a feminist. If the tone of a feminist space grates on your nerves that may be because you're not a feminist yourself. It may also be that your female socialization is tripping you up, and you may be able to get over that.

Or you might decide that you're not a feminist but this one issue is important enough to you that you're willing to talk about it in a feminist space even if that space isn't a natural fit for you, on account of you holding some rather sexist ideas about how women should behave. It's possible to work around that kind of difference in perspective. But probably not if your social skills are of the "insist that I'm right enough times and they'll eventually have no option but to acknowledge my correctness" variety.

TERFragetteCity · 26/04/2018 23:02

who was stroppy

Sorry bout that.Wink

AngryAttackKittens · 26/04/2018 23:05

Also, at a certain point the horse is long since dead and continuing to beat it isn't achieving much. It just makes people wonder why anyone would do such a thing.

AskBasil · 26/04/2018 23:07

"It got me thinking about how many women probably sit outside the debate, not getting involved, miss interesting pieces of reading (because mainstream media hasn't been brilliant and presenting women's issues) whilst actually being interested in some of issues."

You know what, most women sit outside the debate because feminism is uncomfortable. As soon as you get properly involved, you become uncomfortably aware of the compromises you're making, the freeloading of the men in your life, the exploitation to which you are being subjected, the number of times you have to bite your tongue and grit your teeth just to not be "that woman".

And everyone in your life is uncomfortable with the fact that you are so involved. It makes them feel defensive, irritated, resentful that you might be secretly condemning them. So they laugh at you and wind you up and make it very clear that this is not something that is valid or worthwhile.

I don't really think it's because women talk to each other, the way they want to.

CharlieParley · 26/04/2018 23:10

Italiangreyhound absolutely not directed at you at all. To me there's a difference between gently reminding people not to become hateful (or whatever) and being dictatorial about how we're allowed to express ourselves.

At the end of the day there's a report button for any post that breaks the talk guidelines. And where the screenshotting is concerned, I've seen plenty of them being manipulated so they completely distorted what the actual discussion was and I've seen things posted as proof of transphobia that were simply stating facts. In light of that I find it pointless to tone police to the extreme as it's not our tone they're objecting to, but our concern that self-id may impact on our rights.

CharlieParley · 26/04/2018 23:11

AskBasil that is so painfully true.

Italiangreyhound · 26/04/2018 23:11

@CharlieParley thanks (my nick name is paranoid Pete!)

thebewilderness · 26/04/2018 23:15

I do want to say one more thing about this issue of women acting like people.
Over the years more than a few women have told me that what I said upset them very much. Then they started seeing it everywhere and it upset them even more. Then they got mad and got busy.

LangCleg · 26/04/2018 23:30

You know what, most women sit outside the debate because feminism is uncomfortable.

This is so true.

The good thing about feminism is that once you've passed the uncomfortable stage, you reach the liberating stage when you feel perfectly entitled to your own voice. It's a great feeling. And it makes you want to help other women to feel that same entitlement, to find their own voices, and use them.

I think we should all beware of telling other women that their voices aren't acceptable. Better to argue the substance of a conversation than its tone. Always.

Bloodmagic · 27/04/2018 04:35

@grandplans

Here's one study of BMR fluctuating that way, highest before menstruation, lowest around ovulation, even while you're sleeping

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=2706224&ordinalpos=48&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I came into contract with most of this information through weightlifting. It becomes pretty obvious pretty quickly that as a women you have "high gravity" days and "God-mode" days a lot more often and with a bigger impact than the fellas do. Here's an article summarizing some of the current info in how women working with their cycle can get better results:

bayesianbodybuilding.com/menstrual-cycle-periodization/

What I don't think he mentions is that you are measurably physically stronger or weaker at certain points of your cycle. E.g. for me, I can generally comfortably bench press 55kg for a few reps and sets. In the week before bleeding I'd be lucky to get 40kg and it would leave me absolutely exhausted. 2 weeks later I could do over 60kg and have enough energy for another try later the same day. Weightlifting women seem to be on the cutting edge of this because while you can ignore bouts of low energy in your day job, if you're trying to move weight regularly you can actually quantify the impact of that low energy and see when it's happening over and over.

It is a bit hard to find this information because as a society we're still stuck in the ancient belief that women are basically like men but smaller and weaker (which incidentally is where trans identifying men get the idea that they can 'become women'). The info is out there, you just have to dig.

Then again, you don't really need to read a scientific study on it, just start watching your own body. I think some women fluctuate more than others, you probably already know if you have quite strong effects from your hormonal cycle or not really. I saw it explained once in terms of summer/autumn/winter/spring which is the same information as early/late follicular/luteal but it's easier to remember which is what:

Winter is the week which includes the start of your bleeding. For me, it's probably 4 days before bleeding and the first 3 days of (heavy) bleeding. In this time you are low on hormones and low on energy. You need to eat more, keep warm, and rest. This is your Yin. It's a time for recuperating and purging all the things from last month that you won't be needing to take forward. Do yoga and chill.

Spring is the next week. For me its start is marked with a few days of progressively lighter bleeding, but of course that depends on the length of your cycle. If you have rested properly in winter you will be full of energy in spring. Spring is the time for growth and increase, it's the time to grind. If you're lifting weight, or running, or studying, this is the time where you can hit targets and make steady consistent progress.

Summer is ovulation. This is the peak, your Yang. I call it "god mode". I need hardly any food or sleep. I'm hyper focused, I stay up until 5am because my mind is racing and then wake up at 7 or 8 feeling totally fine. If you lift weights or run, this is the time when you will break your records. If you study, this is when your best work will get done so finish off your assignment in this time. If you tend to 'overeat' a lot in autumn/winter this is the time when you cancompensate by eating less (I find i'm not really interested in food and i can eat much less without feeling hungry). You can work out harder, you recover faster, you're stronger and you're also measurably more attractive to the opposite sex, so if you're single go out on the prowl in this week ;)

Autumn is the 'come down' from summer. The weather is changeable, you will have up days and down days and you just have to take them as they come. You should make the most of your up days, and you will find you can push hard because you know you have a designated rest period coming up soon. At the end of autumn/start of winter is when you will find you're hungrier and need to start eating more. You will have more 'down' days and fewer 'up' days as you get closer to winter.

If you're on hormonal birth control it will impact this cycle but doesn't usually eliminate it.

I found that when I wasn't listening to my body and trying to do things the 'man' way what I had was:

Winter - trying and failing to prevent myself from binging. Forcing myself to work out even though my body is screaming 'NO', failing to achieve anything worthwhile anyway, feel crappy about myself, cry.
Spring - still exhausted and sort of 'hung over' from trying to push myself in the week before. Getting a little more energy and finally manage to stop binging.
Summer - have a few successes but assume they are flukes. Don't know how to take advantage of the additional energy I have. Lay awake all night unable to sleep but feeling like I should try to sleep 8 hours. I'm not hungry but force myself to eat what I'm 'supposed to' any way.
Autumn - have successes and failures, feel lost and helpless because doing the same thing has totally different outcomes for no clear reason. Start to get hungry but control it with willpower because im 'supposed to'. Start craving chocolate but ignore it because in 'supposed to'. Get at least one migraine.

Also your body weight fluctuates hugely throughout your cycle so there is absolutely no point in weighing yourself day-to-day. If you want to track your weight, weigh yourself once a month at the start of spring.

It's bloody criminal that we teach young girls about the menstrual cycle in terms of bleeding/not bleeding. In a way the nutter TIMs are correct (from my perspective) that the actual bleeding is a fairly small part of the bigger picture, but of course they're completely wrong about everything else.

ISaySteadyOn · 27/04/2018 06:51

Wow, Blood, that is fascinating. I am going to try harder to listen to my body about this especially as the first day of bleeding leads to debilitating cramps.

Also, in the wider context, as a mostly lurker, I think this thread is a brilliant example of women being people. So many different posters with so many different ways of communicating their thoughts.
Tbh, for me, this is the board I feel safest posting on because of that.

MissTeri · 27/04/2018 06:53

I've only started to really take notice of the trans threads since my exFIL 'came out' as transexual about 18 months ago. My initial reaction to some of those threads was to 'defend' him against what people were saying, I had no knowledge or experience of TRAs and wrongly assumed that the conversations were about people like my exFIL who simply wants to transition in peace and get on with her life.

It was exactly the tone and anger that pulled me in to have a closer look at what was actually being said. I wanted to know just why the hell everyone was so angry, it's not like it affeced them what other people did with their lives Blush I lurked on many a thread for a long time and slowly, gradually, I got it and I was glad that these women were angry. Had those threads been overly nice and polite I very much doubt I would have taken so much interest, but it was the anger that got me curious.

MaisyPops · 27/04/2018 07:06

I had no knowledge or experience of TRAs and wrongly assumed that the conversations were about people like my exFIL who simply wants to transition in peace and get on with her life.
Me neither at first.
I think more can be done to distinguish between a radical TRA agenda and
average trans people who just want to get on with their life accepting they are trans and not denying biology (which may well involve access to a 3rd space, full transition - well as close as given you can't actually change sex etc)
The good thing is there's quite a few threads where lots of people have been making those distinctions. Another poster elsewhere was on about people having peak TRA/MRA which was quite interesting.

Bloodmagic · 27/04/2018 11:13

@ISaySteadyOn I did another post back on page 11 about how most of the 'symptoms' of cramping an PMS are caused by ignoring our bodies specific needs and viewing it through a male lens, might give you some tips to help with your cramping.

Take magnesium supplements. Magnesium citrate is good and easy to find (not all compounds work the same, do not get magnesium/calcium combined supplements), probably take 450mg a day for the week before your period at least. I bet it will help.

Report back after a month! I want to know if other women are having the same experiences! Then we will slowly convert everyone else.

CharlieParley · 27/04/2018 12:02

Thank you for the fascinating posts Bloodmagic I will definitely pay more attention to this cycle now. I do know that I have days where I have the munchies and days where I have no real interest in food. I've taken advantage of my natural tendency to binge and starve by chosing to fast when I want to lose weight. Doesn't suit a lot of people but it works for me and now I understand why.

Also your body weight fluctuates hugely throughout your cycle so there is absolutely no point in weighing yourself day-to-day. If you want to track your weight, weigh yourself once a month at the start of spring.

I would disagree. But only if you can treat your measured weight as data to be analysed, not a stick to beat yourself with.

I've been weighing myself every day for years now. The weight goes into an app (but an excel table would work as well), the app gives me trends. My weight has fluctuated from one day to the next by gaining or losing up to 2.5kg.

Which is why I feel incredibly sorry for those who use weightloss plans where they get weighed every week or month and then beat themselves up over a pound gained when that is most likely a natural fluctuation.

Bloodmagic · 27/04/2018 13:21

@charlieparley

Yes, you can track your weight every day and depending on your starting weight, level of natural fluctuation, and rate of weightloss you may be able to notice a consistent trend over a week or two.

However, if your rate of weightloss is low and your fluctuations are high measuring a trend on a scale of e.g. 2 weeks may show it trending upwards when it is merely your natural fluctuations camouflaging a downward trend. This can lead women to think that their actions are not working when they are, or that they are working when they're actually not. Even if you're not the sort to beat yourself up over it, if you fail to account for those cyclical fluctuations it can lead you to make the wrong decisions for the outcome you're seeking.

It would have been more correct for me to say you can only accurately gauge your change in weight (true body mass, when accounting for water fluctuations) by comparing to a similar point in your previous cycle(s). Any point(s) will do, but the end of winter is when your weight is lowest and probably the most stable so that's the only one I bother with. You could absolutely do this in an excel spreadsheet.

And hey, since you've got the data handy anyway I would like to ask you a favor - Would you mind compiling your data into a spreadsheet or something to graph the trends over your cycle period? I wanna see if the variations are consistent and predictable or not and I don't track my own weight. No harm if your don't want to, I jut thought since it's there, if you're willing it would be interesting. Or send it to me and I'll do the data crunching and send it back for your info :)

leggere · 27/04/2018 13:48

it was the anger that got me curious. Me too. Anger is good, it can get things done.

CharlieParley · 27/04/2018 13:52

bloodmagic I'll have a look if the app has an export function. Is the data any good if my periods are not on it? I'm total pants at keeping track and don't normally write it down, so I'm sure it wouldn't be on there either.

Bloodmagic · 27/04/2018 14:04

@CharlieParley

if your periods are pretty regular and you can tell me the date of your last (or next) one and roughly how long your cycle is, the data would still be useful.