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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Your peaktrans moment for today! Top this if you can.

388 replies

Ritzsaltedcrackers · 25/04/2018 13:21

A woman was thrown out of a FB feminist group for challenging the idea that transwomen get periods.

apparently they DO get periods just without the small aspect of bleeding.

She was told that she was minimising transwomen's periods.

www.facebook.com/beth.rep/posts/10216741083464856

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 26/04/2018 22:21

If you're not angry about this issue, then to my mind there's something wrong.

It really pisses me off that, to some people, a woman's anger instantly discredits what she says.

Co-signed. If women are not angry it is likely because they are not paying attention.

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 26/04/2018 22:22

Over the year I've been here, I've only recently gravitated to Feminist Chat. It the most calm, thoughtful and respectful part of MN IMO.

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 26/04/2018 22:22

years, NOT YEAR

Datun · 26/04/2018 22:23

MaisyPops

I genuinely think that women's anger does make certain people disregard what they say.

Angry feminist, bra burner, women's libber, feminazi, etc.

They all conjure up the same picture.

However, you can't tell women to not show their anger, on that basis.

It's a fact that women not being angry doesn't improve their chances of being listened to.

You may think it does. But I disagree.

The only reason I might check what I say on here is mainly so I'm not deleted. It's a complete waste of time writing a post that's going to get nixed.

Also, it's just my personal style of writing

There are many women here who find a profound relief in expressing their anger.

And none of this really matters. The fact is, you can't tell other women how to talk.

You can make suggestions. But that's it.

thebewilderness · 26/04/2018 22:23

We all see what you mean, Maisy. Considering how many times you have said it we cannot help but see what you mean.
If you wish to perform for an audience that is your right.
Please respect the judgment of the women here and stop harassing us.

Italiangreyhound · 26/04/2018 22:27

@CharlieParley "Sometimes standing your ground means not giving a flying fuck about offending someone because the issue goes way beyond hurt feelings."

I completely agree. For the record I wasn't trying to tone police anyone. I was just thinking it out for myself. I don't want to try and hold anyone back, I find all of you women fucking formidable!

"DH doesn't give a shit about my feelings (or anyone else's for that matter) when he needs something that is absolutely vital to him. So, why should I?

TRAs or that person thinking they're having periods - they don't give a shit about our feelings. So why should I give a shit about theirs? Especially when it's about using pronouns talking about randoms on the internet. Just to have the moral high ground? Just so that other lot of randoms can't pronoun-police me? Fat lot of good that's going to do me when my rights are gone.

Fighting for your rights isn't pretty. It cannot be sanitised." Very true and it is really hard, for some of us, to over come that female socialisation. So please do not read my words as trying to tone police anyone, or if you do read that in them, ignore me, of course. Thanks

AngryAttackKittens · 26/04/2018 22:27

It's funny, it's usually men who when you don't agree with them the first time repeat the same thing over and over again on the assumption that if they say it often enough you'll stop disagreeing, out of exhaustion if nothing else.

(Nah, I've had coffee, plenty of energy left.)

MaisyPops · 26/04/2018 22:32

Italiangreyhound
See mine's not about upsetting TRA. It was thoughts on how it might be possible to try and appeal to a wider group of women.

I find it upsetting that I have a number of female friends who have views that align so closely to lots of threads on here and yet they 'don't do feminism'. It got me thinking about how many women probably sit outside the debate, not getting involved, miss interesting pieces of reading (because mainstream media hasn't been brilliant and presenting women's issues) whilst actually being interested in some of issues.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/04/2018 22:34

........

You know what? I'm going to let bewilderness handle the question of feminists putting women off feminism by sounding too much like feminists.

leggere · 26/04/2018 22:35

Maisy, you're a teacher aren't you? I feel that you're trying to use your teaching methods on this thread, you're speaking to pp's as though we're all in the classroom.

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 26/04/2018 22:36

Yes, assertiveness can be shocking when you aren't used to it. It can seem like aggression. But it's really not

TERFragetteCity · 26/04/2018 22:38

I find it upsetting that I have a number of female friends who have views that align so closely to lots of threads on here and yet they 'don't do feminism'. It got me thinking about how many women probably sit outside the debate, not getting involved, miss interesting pieces of reading

Obviously your message/approach isnt getting through. Seems like your friends need a different angle, yes?

Ereshkigal · 26/04/2018 22:39

I notice Maisy doesn't have a problem being assertive or "telling it like it is" herself. Funny that.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/04/2018 22:40

I did notice that Masie is quite convinced that she has the authority to determine what would work best for everyone here. I suggest that reactions so far suggest that that's not the case.

MaisyPops · 26/04/2018 22:41

leggere
No i am just explaining my point of view.

I notice Maisy doesn't have a problem being assertive or "telling it like it is" herself
I'm not 'telling it like it is'. I'm saying my take on a debate.

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 26/04/2018 22:42

No, I agree. So it's other women she's worried about being 'put off'. If they but stop for a while they'd see there's nothing to be put off of.

I feel like there's a narrative about this forum that bears absolutely no resemblance to my experience of it

MaisyPops · 26/04/2018 22:43

did notice that Masie is quite convinced that she has the authority to determine what would work best for everyone here. I suggest that reactions so far suggest that that's not the case
I haven't said what is best for everyone here.
I have pointed out that it might be worth thinking about how debates come across to people who aren't already involved in the debate.

KreigersClones · 26/04/2018 22:44

Did it ever occur to you that ‘being nice’ doesn’t work?
If women are not ‘into’ feminism, yet have the views of a feminist, who’s fault do you think that might be?
Who do you think has the power to portray feminism in such a bad light, that people are so put off they don’t even realise that they agree with most of it?
I’ll give you a hint. Its not women....

AngryAttackKittens · 26/04/2018 22:45

If that was all you were saying it would only have needed to be said once, Masie. Where we are now is you being unwilling to take no for an answer.

MaisyPops · 26/04/2018 22:46

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged
Depends. I was absolutely put off contributing to feminism chats ages ago. As a first experience, it did confirm the reputation it has.

I spent a bit more time looking and dropping in as and when things came up on active and found it to generally be quite a fruitful place for debate.

It does seem to be heading back the other way though in places.

CharlieParley · 26/04/2018 22:46

Anger doesn't discredit, but 'just telling it like it is, look I'm hilarious for calling a transwoman by their male name' type thing probably does discredit the debate.

That's where we clearly differ. My hairdresser told me today her daughter was recently taught at primary school that if you want to be a boy you can totally become a boy, a proper boy like any other boy (reminded me of Pinocchio for some reason). And she asks me what do I think of this complete and utter falsehood.

And so we had a chat about what trans means today and crossdressers getting access to female spaces and places. The room was full of women of all ages, and when my hairdresser asked "who on earth could think that self-id is a good idea?" everyone agreed.

And we had a chat about Maria's court case and the judge telling the victim off for not showing respect to her legally male attacker by using female pronouns. Everyone thought this was complete and utter lunacy. I didn't even mention that the judge told Maria off for using the wrong pronoun for her attacker while her attacker was allowed to disprespect her by insulting her over and over again in court by calling her a TERF.

That completely epitomises the problem - women be nice or else. Men can do as they please.

And not one person there thought for a second that demanding that women pretend men can become women is right. They simply do not believe in gender identity, most have never even heard of the idea.

When these people know a transperson they will use preferred, reasonable (ie not made up) pronouns out of respect for the individual but not because they believe the fiction that a man can ever become a woman, but only because interpersonal contact involves all kinds of fictions and social white lies and this is just one more.

What I learned in that salon today is that if politicians ever stepped out of their bubble and listened to normal people, not the woke hipsters and brocialists that dominate the public sphere, they'd get a rude awakening. They can only hope women don't find out about this.

When I take part in this debate, I will continue to sex people according to material reality, not a quasi-religious belief system I do not subscribe to. You can no more force me to agree with creationism than you can force me to agree with gender ideology.

leggere · 26/04/2018 22:47

No Maisy, you're sounding like the teacher that you are. This thread is NOT your classroom.

KreigersClones · 26/04/2018 22:47

I have pointed out that it might be worth thinking about how debates come across to people who aren't already involved in the debate
I’m gonna go for it coming across like a broken record at this point....

thebewilderness · 26/04/2018 22:48

People have been telling Feminists that they are Feminisming wrong all my life and yet we refuse to stop. Fancy that.

Ereshkigal · 26/04/2018 22:49

I'm not 'telling it like it is'. I'm saying my take on a debate.

Yet other women, according to you, are?

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