Everyone should see this IMPORTANT

[MsMcWoodle]

Have a look. What country are we in:
www.facebook.com/julie.bindel/videos/pcb.10160135970780316/10160135907955316/?type=3&theater

Marvin

You are fooling noone

2/10 for trolling. Must try harder

But Marvin, take away all the talk of violence and you are left with some facts.

The protesters tried to stop the meeting. I don’t know how it eventually proceeded, but the organisers of the meeting were stopped from entering a room by people who had no authority to do so.

The meeting had Q&A and the venue specifically encouraged participation from people with different views. There were opportunities to engage.

What kind of ideology tries to silence opposing view points?

They're scared that Terfs want to eradicate them

Well, if they're that delusional, perhaps it's better than we don't legislate for their demands then, eh?

Personally, I think Marvin is talking sense. I think the debate is becoming increasingly polarised and hateful. TRAs are mainly responsible but from the perspective of someone who is fully GC, peak-TRA'd etc, I think people on these boards have become increasingly unwilling to brook any argument that isn't wholehearted agreement. The fear on the GC side of being doxxed etc is also making us less tolerant- we assume that anyone with a more moderate POV is being goady.

But we also have to accept that there are trans individuals who are afraid and that they genuinely feel under threat. The atmosphere the last couple of weeks has become very uncomfortable. This is a good sign because it's the result of the debate coming more into the mainstream.

I don't know. I don't seem to have a point, except that dismissing anyone with a moderate POV as a troll seems to be self-defeating.

‘But I do think both sides are creating fear of the other which is often not entirely evidenced.’

I have seen plenty of evidence why women who disagree with self ID have reason to fear; physical assault and the encouragement of physical violence against them for a start. I have never seen the equivalent response from women.

I’m reminded of Donald Trump’s argument of the moral equivalency between the Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville, and those protesting them

@Marvin " In a situation with polarising viewpoints bound to create tension.... "

• a situation arranged and created by the TAs, for exactly that purpose.

I don't consider myself as a Terf and that has excluded me from some of the feminist movement in this case

What feminist movement

I hesitate to describe myself as a radical feminist. I'm not steeped in the literature. I would have hesitated to call myself a feminist until quite recently. I genuinely thought most of the battles had been won a long time ago and things were getting better for women. Now I think I've been extremely naive.

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." Attributed to Margaret Atwood.

I first came across this after I started getting interested in this topic. How very true it is. Women are socialised to be nice to others. Some men seem to find it so unsettling to be challenged by a woman that it's automatically interpreted as aggression.

Ah, do you know what?

I was actually hoping to have a 'civilised debate' looking at both sides (as I see both sides having my own GC viewpoint and knowing and speaking to lots of young transpeople who may well be TRAs in MN opinion) and was using the term 'Terfs' as that's what the TRAs use (and was chanted outside the jam jar, I was there) and I was using it from that pov.

As in - 'you' think they're TRAs. They think 'you' are Terfs.

Quite a difficult thing to try and go against some viewpoints on FWR but I was willing to do it as know that most (well, it used to be) posters on FWR actually want to talk rather than have the echo chamber it's often accused of.

You can ask MN to check my previous names (I nc regularly as work with high risk people) and as we've seen from the EH stuff, MN keep emails even if you deregister so MNHQ can see that even if I've dereged at times, I've been a member on and off since 2009 under this email.

They can see all my GC posts pre and post Spartacus. It's only recently I've felt 'pushed out' of FWR for not fully supporting a lot of the views.

But I got a PM saying that person doesn't 'even report TRAs as believe in free speech' but threatening to report me for using Terf and accusing me of using the tactics of TRAs.

I don't like getting weird PMs threatening me in any way.

So...I honestly can't be bothered and unusual for me, I'm a bit upset. I used to stand with you.

I actually am standing up at work (where a GC someone like me is needed). But fuck this.

MN asked for a trans section and it was opposed (I initially opposed it to). Feminist MNetters have said they saw transphobia sometimes and it was denied.

It has gone so far in some aspects of the site that it's bored the women it affects and alienated the very women the self ID issue had galvanised. That's why the petition has just over 10,000 names (I signed) despite the millions of MN users and the repeated MN threads about it.

So I'll be off. Like the feminists before me. Shit it's come to this but after years of pointing out you could be GC without being transphobic. I can't be arsed.

I wasn't battling you lot. I was on the side of truth and non-bigotry. For all.

Haven't Bristol University students voted for a TERF ban?

Gaspode

I did one of those test things that someone posted on here and i was pretty much in the middle

I am a feminist...if someone made me chose i would probably have to say radical

Its a bit like my politics...im definitely centre there as well

marvin

So you don't want to answer my question

Or did you mean mumsnet FWR

was chanted outside the jam jar, I was there

Interesting, were you with the feminists or the TRAs?

'Terf' is an insult. Nobody calls themselves a terf except as a joke. Are you saying TRA is also an insult? Because as a term it isn't associated with death threats, defamation and dehumanisation in the same way 'terf' is.

I am GC and not transphobic

I really dont understand why you are going marvin just ignore anyone who may be misrepresenting your position if that what you believe

Oh fgs

Marvin's

Yes I bet you got weird pm's

This is about men threatening women, period. Don't be mealy-mouthed pretending to fence sit. Just talk straight. You aren't against what they do.

I saw your comment earlier about anti-fascism march...blah blah. Yes..the usual musings from those who are in it to be trendy, and always mention it as if it means anything at all aside from selective solidarity with a self-serving agenda.

Normally to be found somewhere earnestly and unblinkingly telling black people how to act think and feel about fascism. When their aggressors look like you, but you aren't nuanced enough to take that into account when demonstrating your "anti" ness.

Being both black and a woman I know exactly what fascism is, both racist and sexist fascism, and that so-called liberals at times are the worst as they're so self-assured that they are right (privilege at play); "anti-fascism" is ok - as long as it's done in their way, of course. They'll mention for next 40 years they went to an anti-fascism march.

Never mind your trying to cloud the issue. Women are being threatened and intimidated. Men are physically stronger. Now if that continues it's going to be pretty shit for me I should think.

You write as if to an audience that's not in this forum right now so I guess whoever you're demo-ing for is busy with the "look here at all these unreasonable women" stance.

I hope the day never comes when we are passive and reasonable in the face of fascism be that anti-woman or anti-foreigner.

Yup. Anyone who is in doubt about what happened here, go back and watch the vids again.
Mealy-mouthed excuses and attempts to obscure don't work.

Well said Mistress

Cosigning everything Mistress said!

And honestly, if people are regularly behaving this way at other sorts of demos that is also a problem. I have a friend who supports no-platforming. I thought it was a bad idea when it was just for fascists, and was not at all surprised to see it spread and be aimed at anyone who studenty types don't like, because the thing about something like that is that once you legitimize it then it can be used against you too.

Masks, blocking access to meeting venues - this is not the way activists should be operating in a democratic society. For those who tolerated or even encouraged it when it was aimed at people they didn't like, well, you're part of the reason we're where we are now.

The logic behind no-platforming used to be that 'we' (e.g. the students at some university) refuse to give a platform to particular speakers, even if a minority welcomes them. Now, no-platforming means denying a platform to those speakers anywhere - not just at the uni. TRAs want to stop feminists talking on Twitter, Mumsnet, and in physical venues too. It's become a blanket ban. And that is scary.

Does anyone know when no-platforming started? I don’t remember it in the 90s/early 00s.

I assume, quite possibly erroneously, that it’s an American thing.

Antifa wanted it to be the current definition right from the beginning. I guess they got their way. I don't think they should have.

I feel like once the self-id issue has been dealt with we're long overdue for a discussion about antifa's influence on the left as a whole and whether it's been a positive one (from my perspective it has not).

AAK "For those who tolerated or even encouraged it when it was aimed at people they didn't like, well, you're part of the reason we're where we are now."

Yes, that video of the Bristol meeting has hardened my resolve and lowered my tolerance for people like Marvin, who seem to think it will all be sorted out if we just behave ourselves. Fuck that.

Noone is going to stop me entering a legal public meeting. I am aghast at what happened. These cunts have scored a serious own goal if they think they can intimidate women and stop them speaking. No fucking way.

I just saw two of the videos this morning.

Like other posters, I was just hoping Julie would bring out some working class whoop ass and just push past these men.

I watched the event on Youtube and throughout the first hour you can hear the TA's screaming outside. NARC RAGE.

Full event:

If somebody blocks your way, and you inform them of your intent to continue, then continue only to be physically blocked, what’s the legal situation?