Everyone should see this IMPORTANT

[MsMcWoodle]

Have a look. What country are we in:
www.facebook.com/julie.bindel/videos/pcb.10160135970780316/10160135907955316/?type=3&theater

I've now bought a ticket to the Oxford event. I don't like bullies, and I won't be cowed by them. #Theycankissmycis!

Who do they think they are? They're nothing more than idiots and bullies!

I've never really been interested in feminism, but this has really opened my eyes to a lot of things; and because I have girls, I will not stand meekly aside whilst their rights are taken away.

@MadBadDaddy that rephrase doesn't look much different.

I think both sides are in danger of losing any sense of perspective.

Trans people are very unlikely to be at physical risk from Terfs but a lot of young transpeople are scared. They're scared that Terfs want to eradicate them. They do believe it, from the propaganda they read and see. And also that they perceive that a lot of Terfs want to invalidate their legal rights that have been in legislation for a while now. Their genuine fear is that Terfs want to stop trans completely. A lot of the 'TRAs' are young, idealistic (as many of us were) and see the laws, many MPs etc supporting them and a small group of people saying no and often, in an aggressive manner (aggression doesn't have to be physical). Many have ASD and that does influence their world view.

A lot do genuinely feel this is a fight against transphobia and fascism. A lot think they are genuinely at risk. A lot think they are at physical risk - not necessarily directly from Terfs but for what they perceive Terfs want.

Terfs think the same but with an opposing viewpoint. They think it's a fight against misogyny and fascism. That their way of life is at risk. That they are physically at risk.

I am GC. I'm against self ID. I don't think male bodied people should be performing intimate examinations of women that don't want them to, or work in refuges or rape crisis centres. Or be in womens prisons.

But I'm seeing both sides using increasingly dramatic arguments based on very flimsy evidence.

I don't see these TRAs as terrorists anymore than I would see angry and aggressive protesters at a pro life or fox hunting meeting. People who firmly believe the other side is wrong and they are 'taking a stand for right' do act in ways they wouldn't normally and feel it is justified.

It has always been like this.

I think MN does a lot of good in raising awareness of self ID and its potential consequences. I also see what I think is similar propaganda as is being used by the other side. Scaremongering from both sides which is losing the point of what is actually happening.

I'll be honest with you, I'm losing track of what people believe. Did those young TRAs in the video genuinely think they are women? If so, why?

fox hunting meeting

I can see the logic of stopping a hunt going ahead. But stopping a political meeting by your opponents? That is fascism, right there.

The point of stopping a fox hunt is that at the end of the hunt the fox is dead. A group of women sitting around talking about proposed legislative changes is extremely unlikely to result in anyone being dead the end.

But that's the thing NotTerf ..you and I think it's just a political meeting by your opponents.

But I've protested at BNP and Britain first meetings and rallies. As have many. And I have shouted aggressive terms. A good friend of mine (now a senior social worker) was sent to prison for assaulting a Police Officer as part of a 'mob' during the poll tax riots. Peaceful protest in the ideal but history has shown us it doesn't get a lot of attention. And the Bristol protest didn't get a lot of attention because actually, very little happened.

These TRAs genuinely think they're in the right.

As I have at my protests.

As Terfs think they are here.

The people disagreeing with any view always see it as intimidation, aggression, violence, mobs and unacceptable because they disagree with the viewpoint.

The aggressors see it as necessary.

Both sides think it is right.

Here's another clip - Men surround a woman on the stairwell.
twitter.com/twitter/statuses/988003582250291201

It amuses me that TRAs describe TERFs as fascist when the former use violence and threats against women.

As Terfs think they are here.

You rang?

Well, no. I've disagreed vehemently with people on multiple political issues before without a bunch of them turning up, masked, and blocking my access to a meeting.

I have been to more protests in my life than I can remember. I have never felt the need to cover my face or stop people from meeting.

I just showed to my husband. He had been peaktransed but now he's full peaked and ranting about it.

They are doing a good job here

@SpringNowPlease2018 I'm not taking the piss, I'm just trying not to be at a total loss for words. This would be easier if my jaw wasn't on the floor.

This is men bullying women no need to try to explain it away as anything else. They do it as they are physically stronger. That's an imbalance right there.

If we let this pass we and our daughters may as well be the handmaidens of male privilege. Sit down, put up, shut up.

I'm not fucking having it. I debated going to a previous meeting but I didn't. Next London meeting tho. I have daughters and refuse to sit down whilst a bunch of pathetics tell them that they don't matter.

@MarvinshouldhavesaidWTFisgoing I get what you're saying. However, I can't imagine masked anti-fascists blocking entry to a BNP meeting and arrogantly demanding ID, or sneering, as though they are in charge, 'you are free to leave'. Why not? Because the BNP are mainly male and there's a different power dynamic going on. I've witnessed counter-fascist demonstrations and I can tell you that both sides seemed to relish what was happening. It was a chance for a scrap. Forcibly closing down a political meeting as though you're Brownshirts in pre-Nazi Germany is something quite different.

You'll notice that feminists are not disrupting TRA meetings in this way. It's all incredibly one-sided.

Marvin
Stop calling gender critical women terfs.
You should know its a term of abuse.

They're scared that Terfs want to eradicate them

But this was a meeting of with Q&A.

In a democracy, we have meetings and exchange opinions.

In a country like the U.K. where freedom of expression is protected, why avoid and shut down debate if you believe in your argument?

They're scared that Terfs want to eradicate them. They do believe it, from the propaganda they read and see.

There’s no arguing with credulousness and a lack of critical thinking.

Peaceful protest in the ideal but history has shown us it doesn't get a lot of attention.

One person one vote, freedom of expression, free press, independent judiciary is the ideal.

If you are making your point by attacking people physically, then it’s just a fight. Women tend to lose physical fights against men.

They're scared that Terfs want to eradicate them. They do believe it, from the propaganda they read and see.

The irony is, if they actually attended the meeting and listened and engaged with people, they'd realise the propaganda is false. Their refusal even to listen to the other side is the mark of a cult.

I say this as a gender critical person who has read loads about trans ideology. I'm sure I've read far more written by TRAs than by feminists.

I notice the quiet, buried false equivalence between feminists and the BNP in Marvin's post.

But a 'bunch' is 3/4 here on a stairwell? (And I'm not condoning that behaviour AT all, particularly as I respect and admire speakers and organisers and Magdalen Berns hugely and know she's been unwell)

And a couple of dozen protesters outside who can be heard chanting and it's mostly womens voices that can be heard on the video. Heavy Police and media presence outside.

In a situation with polarising viewpoints bound to create tension and actions by a small number of people who genuinely believe that the Terfs are threatening their right to live their lives.

And this is being used as an example of how all TRAs are aggresive and all women are at risk from them. That that is fascism. And we all should be terrified.

The TRAs/trans/trans allies are saying they were threatened and someone thrown down the stairs. That Terfs want to eradicate trans people. That that is fascism. And they should all be terrified.

THEY think they are right and Terfs think THEY are right.

And I don't think that's the case. I don't think every woman should be terrified of trans people or TRAs and I don't think trans people should be terrified of Terfs.

But I do think both sides are creating fear of the other which is often not entirely evidenced.

I'm a GC woman who is 'out' at work and in RL and in my line of work that is significant (as I often work with trans people, so it maybe that I see the different RL people that really believe what they believe but really aren't that frightening).

I don't consider myself as a Terf and that has excluded me from some of the feminist movement in this case.

I can see that there is so much passion, total belief in the 'cause' and fear on both. So I'm seeing both sides.

Which is an uncomfortable position to be in given my own GC opinions. But I think it's as valid as any other and in this debate, it's an important one.

I don't consider myself as a Terf and that has excluded me from some of the feminist movement in this case.

I think we have troll bingo.

Hint - when women call themselves TERFs it's a joke. There is no feminist movement that you'd be excluded from for not calling yourself that.

Marvin, 'terf' is just an insult for 'gender critical'. What is your understanding of the difference?