How do you teach your daughters to be nice but not nice?

[Incarnationsofunderstanding]

Boys too I guess to be fair.

Had a terrible experience recently (not detailing, been there deleted that), but as I think and think on it part of the cause is im nice. I'm empathic and tend to put other peoples needs above my own instincts.

Also I tend to the polite and have an inability to set firm boundaries.

I've found myself starting to say to the girls in the past week things like "it's your choice" "you can say no" but I'm handling it all wrong as a reaction.

So wise ladies of MN feminism, how do I ensure my daughters have all the traits of empathy, kindness etc. But be able to prioritise their ability to say no, to set boundaries, to be hard?

Reading material welcome for the future when I am able.

No it doesn't sound trite. DH talks a lot about a martial art he did and how it was focused on defence - on fighting hard enough to get the chance to run basically. I can see how that would give you day to day confidence although I also see the point that is being made about the insidious psychological nature of most abuse...

DD was talking to me the other day about some of the dance she does now. She says it has made her think more about taking up space in the world - when you are in a dance class or on stage, you have the explicit right to take up space as a woman. Society as a whole prefers women not to take up space.

I've always let her know that it's okay to put yourself first in quite a lot of situations. Nobody else will. Anything life-changing like choosing a college/university, go self self self all the way.

She sounds great smallClanger! What a fab point to have made.

Don't be a pleaser. Question rules. Question things that you, your OH and your respective families come out with
Eg my OH told my daughter off for telling him to go away - she mustn't tell people to go away because it is rude
I said - no she can tell anyone to go away if she wants, you must find another way of approaching the fact that she offended you!
One of my favourite phrases I learned from a female colleague is - I don't HAVE to do anything apart from die when my time comes. Obviously there are many many consequences to not doing certain things but hopefully I can model critical thinking so my daughter could conclude that some silly made up rule does not equal "girls have to" or "girls must not"
Be yourself - especially with your OH. My mum never could be with my dad, still cannot. She is afraid of him.

Anything life-changing like choosing a college/university, go self self self all the way

Some of my friends daughters are making uni choices this year. I am gobsmacked that nearly all of them are choosing based on boyfriends, friends etc. And that the parents seem ok with it.

When my DD went to uni 10 years ago none of the girls in her year did this except for one who got married and went off to uni with her husband and then had to take a year out for maternity leave. She did qualify a year late and he took that year off to look after baby. They've got 2 now and although not a convention route they seem to have done OK.

DD was amazed when she got to uni and discovered how many had picked uni to be with boyfriends and then didn't seem to survive as a couple anyway.

I discouraged my DD from entering the health service which is where i worked. I think at 17 helping the sick, helping people improve their lives, making people better, plus the kudos of being seen by others as doing good in the world, makes it a likely choice for girls. However a couple of decades on when you are caring for your own family, running the home, perhaps keeping an eye on elderly parents, a not particularly well paid role in a caring service is not such a great idea.
No one gets lauded for becoming a banker or engineer, I wonder if the same attraction attracts the many female medical students. I'm not saying these are not good jobs, but wonder why they are female dominated. And have regrets for my choice.

My son is a nurse. He loves it.

One of the big things I'm telling DD1 (8 years old) is that no, boys who are mean to you do not secretly "like you" - she has been told this by other people now several times. People who are horrible to you do not deserve your time or respect and male or female you should not be expected to be a mind reader. You have to respond to people based on their actions and shouldn't accept / listen to / believe other peoples' excuses for bad behaviour.

The number of times I've heard other parents in the park saying 'Oh, boys will be boys' about the terrible behaviour on display. I don't know why they think some people have sons who DON'T behave like that. Presumably just the luck of the draw?!

I saw a horrible incident recently in the park: children I know from my daughter's school (but not well, just by sight really, they're in the older years). A boy who - I found out later - has a reputation for being 'rough' pulled a girl away from the thing he wanted to go on, under a piece of play equipment and threw her forcefully to the floor. Honestly, I was in shock. The girl got up rubbing her arm and I went over (holding a baby) and asked her if she was ok. She doesn't know me - she looked upset but embarrassed, said she was ok and ran off. I didn't know what to do. I sort of feel ashamed that I left it but I don't know who the boy's parents are and I felt that since she wasn't really harmed I'd be considered a lunatic to report to the school, but it struck me later that if I'd seen an adult man do that to an adult woman I'd consider it at least a minor assault. I hope that next time I'd at least say something to the boy but I was just so stunned I didn't really know what to do. It was very unsettling.

That's similar to what I've told my dd too so far Ineed that no friend will ever ask you to do something you arebt comfortable doing. No friendship should be conditional on you doing things. And true friends will not take the word of strangers or people who never bothered with them before over you. Bit that it's also important be that person for somone else. Not to allow yourself to he used but just be that friend someone can trust.

And even if we have argued in the morning. Even if you hate me that day. And even if you are in trouble. You can always tell me anything that happens in school.

And actually she's already witnessed some of this asking out then dumping crap.

I have explained to her that a person's value is not dependant on whether a boy asks them out. And that this is all a case of them trying to make themselves look good by making other people feel like crap.

She is luckily not remotely interested in any of it.

I've found this really interesting - thanks. My girls are all young - 6 and under - but I've already tried to lay the groundwork for some of it.

We don't make them kiss, cuddle or even meaningfully engage with people they don't want to. It is difficult though. Getting the balance between "feeling the fear... and doing it anyway" and trusting their instincts.

I really want them to have good critical thinking skills. Eldest and I already discuss stuff like adverts - do you really think buying X will make Y happen? That is above all what I'd like them to learn. It's going to be very difficult in a "had enough of experts", PoMo world!

We don't teach girls to be themselves. Women are always under a constant barrage to be things:

• Be ambitious and career orientated
• Aspire to to motherhood
• Be sexy (but not too sexy!)
• Be polite
• Be accommodating

I mean I could add hundreds more to the list, but you get the point. Girls rarely get what boys get, which to go out, figure out who you and go and make your mark on the world.

Without getting into the relative merits of public vs private education look at women who have come from all girl schools, they are often more confidant, more likely to pursue careers in STEM, in short they are encouraged to self individuate and go out and make of life what they wish to.

Maybe we need to look at having more girls only state schools.