How do you teach your daughters to be nice but not nice?

[Incarnationsofunderstanding]

Boys too I guess to be fair.

Had a terrible experience recently (not detailing, been there deleted that), but as I think and think on it part of the cause is im nice. I'm empathic and tend to put other peoples needs above my own instincts.

Also I tend to the polite and have an inability to set firm boundaries.

I've found myself starting to say to the girls in the past week things like "it's your choice" "you can say no" but I'm handling it all wrong as a reaction.

So wise ladies of MN feminism, how do I ensure my daughters have all the traits of empathy, kindness etc. But be able to prioritise their ability to say no, to set boundaries, to be hard?

Reading material welcome for the future when I am able.

3stonedown that's the difference, isn't it? We want to raise kids who are capable of not listening to adults because that's what keeps them safe! Your husband isn't listening to your child or her mother - his wishes are overriding hers. She should be in charge of her own body.

Not caring what others think vs societal expectations - you asked how to balance this. I think by getting them to understand why the expectations are as they are- we behave in certain ways to be courteous, and others are courteous to us. People won't want to be friends with us if we behave in certain ways - not sharing our toys with visitors for example.

Love51 thanks, I should say it's my dad saying this not hers. DP is very much in my camp.

That's good - you can pull rank with your dad!

Lots of great stuff here.

I also make a point of showing my dd things I am doing to keep us safe in the big city. So if I move down the bus/train because of someone who is shouting or behaving oddly or cross the road to get out of the way of a group of wayward youf I'll speak to her about it explicitly afterwards. I might say 'Why do you think mummy moved/moved you/crossed the road?'

And I explicitly tell her to listen to that little voice that says to move or run or shout because that little voice is keeping her safe. And not to worry about being polite when that little voice is talking to her.

She's getting quite streetwise at 8. She can spot a funny cigarette a mile off But it's really a preamble to listening to her instincts and using them when a pushy guy bothers her in a bar or in the street.

Some great ideas here. I love the suggestion of mirroring others' behaviour. I always used to feel the need to be nice to people, however they were acting. As I've got older and give fewer fucks, I don't bother being nice to people who aren't being nice to me. I'll generally be polite, but perfunctory.

I love the description of a pp's daughter as a 'bombastic, warrior preschooler'. I used to have one of those. She's now a bombastic, warrior teenager and she's awesome

i did a course a long time ago on assertiveness - people were nominated by their employers to go and basically it was all nice women on the course.

Its a different topic to what you are talking about but somethings I remember from the course (most of it I forgot years ago) was when you say 'no' to someone think of what you are saying 'yes' to instead so it might be 'no I cant do x y z' but that also means 'yes I will have a much needed rest or yes I will put my family first.

A great book on Assertiveness is A Woman In Your Own Right. I believe it was written in the '70s but it's as relevant now

I have found being middle aged has done wonders for my assertiveness

Great thread! Don't know quite where to start yet but there's some brilliant advice here

I have a copy of that on the shelf identifiesasmiddleaged, it's excellent.

This seems an appropriate place to mention this. I’ve been thinking about posting it for a while. I’ve noticed that many posters, even here on FWR, type out an eloquent, well argued post or just a collection of eminently sensible thoughts BUT then at the end, say something sabotaging it like “oh, sorry if that didn’t make sense” or “I hope you can understand my ramblings” or similar. Every time I see this I feel that female socialisation has done a number on so many of us. Can you imagine a man typing such caveats at the end of his post? I honestly can’t. Your opinions are valid. The vast majority of such posts are extremely insightful and well presented. There is no need to apologise for having and stating an opinion.

PS that was not aimed at anyone in particular and certainly not anyone on this thread.

@fascinated That is a very good point and one I am constantly guilty of. Thank you for pointing it out, I will try to refrain, but have to admit, it is hard teaching this old dog new tricks

Goose back: I wonder if they would have been told to smile if they’d been boys? Probably not, eh? It’s the unspoken hierarchy - the boys are on the same side as the visitor. They’ll be told to shake hands, probably. The girls are the “cheerleaders”.

fascinated - I did find it creepy tbh.

*to think for herself and not be a sheep

• to take more notice of actions rather than words
• that the majority of people are good and trying their best, but a few are not
• hope for the best but prepare for the worst (ie self defence class)
• to be as honest as possible with herself and others
• to be kind (where possible)
• to try and aim for balance in most situations*

That all seems entirely sensible (although personally I would drop the self defence bit) but what strikes me is it is exactly the same advice one would apply to a boy.

I have skimmed this thread rather than reading it in detail but there is something of an air of self-fulfilling doomed to fail in it.

I also make a point of showing my dd things I am doing to keep us safe in the big city. So if I move down the bus/train because of someone who is shouting or behaving oddly or cross the road to get out of the way of a group of wayward youf I'll speak to her about it explicitly afterwards. I might say 'Why do you think mummy moved/moved you/crossed the road?'

Well yes, but I travelled quite a bit on my with my son and I did that. He's 28 and we would still do that.

How do we teach boys to be nice but not 'nice'? Does that work?

Also to go with facinations post, i also see “i’m probably being hormonal” at the end of many posts.

Women need to learn that they can be cross, or upset. They don’t need to minimise and exuse it with hormones. I see it quite a lot with posts regarding children- hormones are attributed to certain behaviours.

My mum used to do it to me. If i was ever anything but happy and compliant, i was “hormonal”. No, not hormones, i’m pissed off because i don’t want to go bloody shopping!

My dd’s are hading towards teenage years and i have sworn i will never mention hormones. I try to talk to them about how they are feeling and try to help them work through it.

Sometimes things happen and you have every right to be furious/upset/happy.

Great thread- I’ve been pondering this myself a lot lately. I still haven’t got the balance right with being flexible and being a pushover. As I take on more responsibility at work I realise that I am often paralysed when I have to make a decision because I’m so worried about what people will think of my decision. But- I am slowly improving and I’ve definitely got better at not qualifying my opinions.

With DD I’m really unsure about how to make her more streetwise without terrifying her.

Hop no it doesn't but I wish to god it doesn't. My nephew is nice and I think he's perfect. But the amount of time the men in his life spend trying to toughen him up

fascinated totally relate to that, I have actively been trying to reduce apologising in work emails when I KNOW I am right and just stating an opinion, it's hard.

*did

identifies another great book to download thank you.

Micah

Hormones are an interesting one. I am peri-menopausal and more emotional.
All the emotions I have are entirely justified, but their expression is just a bit extreme at times. I find myself afterwards thinking 'yes that IS how I feel and I am justified in feeling that way' - like a veil has been lifted on emotions I would have previously squashed. Or expressed with an apology at the end.
it's actually really liberating. Now I am aware of them it's about finding that way of being assertive. Truly, unapologetically assertive.

I don't know if others feel this way about getting older, but I am liking it in some ways

By the way, expressing negative emotions in a way that other people can hear was something my mum found it difficult to help me with, having grown up with a very angry father who dominated her.

It's been something I've worked on myself, and also focused on a lot with my children (teen boys). I want them to be able to identify how they feel and be able to express it productively. To understand the link between emotion and behaviour in themselves and others

I was very proud of my 8 year old daughter a few weeks ago. We live in a country where men are perceived to be better. She was buying popcorn and they had run out but we’re making more. She paid for her popcorn, the vendor took money from the boys behind her as well, all quite normal. When the popcorn was done he served the boys ahead of my DD. She very politely said, I was first. Vendor replied but they are boys, she firmly said, I was here first, serve me first. She got her popcorn.

I think a good way to frame it is that of all the people in the world you have a responsibility to look after/protect/be kind to is yourself. I don't mean that in a fluffy 'hug yourself' sort of way, I mean it in that I am not responsible for you and actually if you don't look after yourself you are 1) Failing in your responsibility to keep yourself healthy and sane 2) Potentially setting up a situation where because you're not looking good after yourself, other people will have to do it for you. Now, sometimes, as with illness or injury that's unavoidable but otherwise, if you can take care of you and you don't you are creating problems for others.

A minor example is people who have 'I don't minditis' - people whose response to most requests for a preference is 'I don't mind' because they 'don't want to be a bother.' Unless you are an automaton with no feelings, a lot of the time you will have a preference and actually if you don't tell me a preference you are making me responsible for deciding (minor) things about your life and I don't want that responsibility! Make a decision FFS!

What I don't get about doormats is that they claim to be 'too nice.' Too nice? How is making other people guess what you want nice? I find it quite manipulative, as though the person is standing back, refusing to engage and letting everyone else manage things with the excuse that they don't want to offend people. Why would your preference offend me? Do you think I'm that horrible?

My MIL is a classic 'I don't minditis' sufferer - won't say she wants then stews about how she's ignored, never taken into account etc etc etc. Eh, the way you become a meaningful person in other people's minds is by expressing yourself, preferences being one of the ways. If you fade into the wallpaper and never engage, what do you expect people to do? Magically guess what you want?