How do you teach your daughters to be nice but not nice?

[Incarnationsofunderstanding]

Boys too I guess to be fair.

Had a terrible experience recently (not detailing, been there deleted that), but as I think and think on it part of the cause is im nice. I'm empathic and tend to put other peoples needs above my own instincts.

Also I tend to the polite and have an inability to set firm boundaries.

I've found myself starting to say to the girls in the past week things like "it's your choice" "you can say no" but I'm handling it all wrong as a reaction.

So wise ladies of MN feminism, how do I ensure my daughters have all the traits of empathy, kindness etc. But be able to prioritise their ability to say no, to set boundaries, to be hard?

Reading material welcome for the future when I am able.

The same guys that are shouting out of van windows may well be the ones to go home and create hell in their own homes I was going to put something in about middle-class abusers but didn't make the reply longer! Of course that's the case, but it's also equally true that men who are openly dismissive or abusive to women in public are likely to carry that through everywhere including to their own homes. Hidden abuse is still a huge problem and so is being dismissed/patronized or sexually harassed by men in authority, especially in the professions. Doesn't mean women don't need guidance on how to go jogging with dickheads shouting at you, or moving away from over-friendly bus customers, or front it out when you get randomly shouted at by a big group of teens.

These are not either/or situations, so I don't see why we couldn't discuss all of them with our children.

"These are not either/or situations, so I don't see why we couldn't discuss all of them with our children."

Oh, absolutely- I'm sorry if I implied otherwise.

And I honestly don’t mean to be picky, and it’s fantastic that he appreciates her so much- but I think it’s interesting that your example is of woman as helpmeet............

I was about to say the same.. funny how it’s always the woman supporting the mans career. Funny how 99% of women are lower paid or have “less” of a career so it “makes sense” for them to give up work or go part time.

It's like people who think that murderers/child abusers/rapists look a certain way (weird, ugly whatever) when they are just as likely to be handsome.

Yeah, that’s what I thought. It’s honestly not true. Don't you think a confident young woman who knows her own worth is less likely to end up settling for a damaging relationship? I look at my DD and her friends, well educated young women with good jobs, and the only one who seems to be vulnerable in relationships is one who had a bit of a difficult home life. She is competent and confident in her career but not confident in relationships. The others don't seem to have her vulnerability. I wouldn't say that is 100% the case for everyone but it does help to protect them.

And I honestly don’t mean to be picky, and it’s fantastic that he appreciates her so much- but I think it’s interesting that your example is of woman as helpmeet

So you ignore the having each other's backs, her wanting some who she knows 100% has her back, that they support each other and yes he feels supported by her but that doesn't mean she is a helpmeet whatever a help meet is. They are stronger because they have each other, if you are trying to imply he can progress in his career because she is the "little woman" at home making it possible you couldn't be more wrong. She is still ahead of him in career terms and earning more.

They are partners but yes twist it to prove what you want to prove.

I was about to say the same.. funny how it’s always the woman supporting the mans career. Funny how 99% of women are lower paid or have “less” of a career so it “makes sense” for them to give up work or go part time.

Did you miss the bit about them being supportive of each other or did you decide to ignore it as it didn't fit your narrative? As I say above she is ahead of him career wise and earning wise. Her being there to make him stronger does not mean she doesn't have a career or that her career is less important or she earns less. Maybe you need to look at the bigger picture.

"They are partners but yes twist it to prove what you want to prove."

I honestly wasn't twisting it- I just read what you posted and that's what leaped out at me. You have shown me that I was wrong and I am glad.

Please don't think that confidence and a good home life will protect a woman from an abusive relationship, though. It really, really won't.

@WrongOnTheInternet brilliant post.

@callies can I ask when was your instinct flawed? And you were wrong to trust it? I don't want you to say if you don't want to.

I think if you are an overly trusting person then yes, your instincts may be wrong. But if you are suspicious of others then generally that is safer. It doesn't mean never trusting but it does mean not automatically trusting.

@fascinated the gift of fear is excellent. I will find a good clip of I can. And agree never put yourself or your kids down, even in jest.

I had a very happy home life with parents who adored each other, and a kind and loving Dad who supported me. My first relationship was with someone who nearly killed me. I was vulnerable because I had no idea about manipulation , grooming etc. So it can work the other way too. Men who abuse women are very, very adept at manipulation. Thinking that background plays a part reads like victim blaming to me.
Far better to talk to girls about red flags, how abuse progresses, and how to get out of a relationship early on.

@titchy I love your rules!

Rule 1 - Say what you want to say politely - once only. If the message isn't heard then say it loudly with attitude and peppered with swear words.

Rule 2 - You are more important than anyone else and your needs feelings and opinions are more important.

(I agree, you are more important in your own life, it doesn't mean we can treat people badly, it means they do not get to treat us badly. Eg a mum who invites bullies to your party because no one must be left out I'd how I would interpret that one.)

Rule 3 - Do what you regard as the right thing. The moral high ground is s great place to be with a great vantage point 

Sorry that was all titchy except the but in brackets...

The reason i believe i am a people pleaser, a door matt and ignore my own needs is because i had very little attention and love from my family, was bullied horribly too from 8 to 18. I think its because im desperate to be liked and scared of people disliking me or hurting me so i go along to keep the peace.

There was a lot of comparison in my childhood with others having more or worse things to be upset about and i felt i shouldnt feel angry or upset because there are others in worse situations. I felt thatmy pain is lesser than anyone elses and so i should consider them before me because i can take it. Does this make sense to anyone on here?

So i now validate my daughters feelings, talk about her feelings, give her the words to describe them, discuss and observe the dynamics or manipulation of social interactions in books and on tv.

I praise her kindness but i also let her know i will back her up if she retaliated to insults for example. I was taught not to talk back to teachers or doctors etc. I think its unhealthy as you can speak up without being rude.. and if they were rude they deserve it.

I also am firm about my own need for privacy and my own quiet or hobby time. I tell her that it doesnt mean i love her less and that i have needs like she does and that its important for my own sanity and wellness.

She also saw me speak up when something wasnt right. So i try to lead by example. Some self help books on assertiveness and a lot of therapy helped me get here. Im still not 100% assertive yey though.

My parents weren't abusive exactly (they would certainly deny it) but they used to tell me how I felt. Eg if I said I was cold they'd tell me I wasn't cold. It was so insidious. If I had an idea they'd say 'no you don't want to do that'. I didn't even see it for years after I left my x. I didn't know how I ended up with him as there wasn't really any shouting or cruelty at home when I was growing up. I did know instinctively though that I had to toe the line and I knew not to inconvenience my parents by asking for anything that would be 'trouble' because it was never met with a breezy ''sure!''

It was all so insidious and and relentlessly sexist. My brother has had a totally different childhood and a couple of years ago he was praising my parents for being such good parents. I had to bite my tongue. My brother wasn't an easygoing character and a lot of the time I had to just give in and see the film he wanted or have the topping on the pizza that he chose. You name it, the pressure was always on me to give in because he fought back harder and so if I didn't capitulate instantly, all eyes were on me, blaming me for the argument.

So when I met a controlling man who viewed me through never-satisfied gimlet eyes, it felt familiar. And it got worse over time. I ended up with an abusive man because my parents were clueless about parenting, not because they were bad people.

I have a lot more awareness. BUT my parents think they were great parents and they think I'm spiky, too sensitive, hormonal, awkward, paranoid. They think they were great parents. They get angry with me if I don't collude with this view.

So I was PRIMED by my childhood to put up and shut up in a relationship.

I'm out of the abusive relationship now. Trying to have less of an emotional response (ie, hurt) to my parents' ongoing dismissal of my feelings. I mean, there in their early 70s, I know it's not their job to worry about my feelings but sometimes they do things that seem so willfully hurtful that I can't believe it. I'm in shock at the moment over something they did and they haven't acknowledged it at all except to roll their eyes at me like I'm impossible when I asked them if they'd forgotten that I asked them not to.......(the thing they did).

I bicker with my daughter but I encourage her to be brave and ask her what she thinks and what she feels and I tell her she's funny. It's hard to be a good parent but at least I don't believe I am a perfect parent.

I don't know how my parents can look at me, relentlessly single, I mean relentlessly and then congratulate themselves on the great job they did as parents, simultaneously despairing at my lack of achievements in life. I hope that doesn't sound too self-pitying. I'm happy now.

Hangry - yes. I hear you. Being told that I was stronger than most so should not complain.

Incarnationsofunderstanding you started a brilliant thread
You have been on my mind & I hope that the path to "ok" is laid before your feet

Selkie

It doesn't sound self-pitying. It sounds honest and incredibly insightful. And you should pat yourself on the back for that insight because that is what is equipping your daughter as well as yourself for the future. Some people can't manage to achieve that insight

I don't think that people will automatically Like yes men, 'kind' people, thoughtful people. People like others who make them laugh and people who let you know where they stand. They don't really like woosses or constantly being beholden to someone who has been 'kind' to them. Or being around needy people as it is hard work.
I thought I had to be 'nice' and 'considerate' - and to do that was suppressing my true feelings (anxiety, lack of confidence etc and also lack of genuine respect for the people i 'helped').
It took me a lifetime to learn that, not sure why it took so long but I was a bit ignored as a child and think I didn't learn to mix, or it's just my temperament. You have to be yourself.

Oh and I went into a 'caring' profession which was probably a mistake.

hangry24seven yes - my mother constantly refers to the generations of strong women in our family but she just means all the men are unable to clean or care for children so the women did it. Funnily enough I am very different to her so i dont think it had much effect but my brother learned helplessness from an early age

That is why I was puzzled at the poster focusing on telling her daughter why they were moving away from dodgy characters on trains.

Not sure why that puzzled you so much since I specifically said in my post that this was about teaching her about her instincts and to trust them, that no-one deserves her politeness, in preparation for when blokes are demanding her attention in bars etc.

It was one example - added to those made by pp - about how we might fight the girls being socialised to be 'nice' and polite.

Thanks identifiesasmiddleaged

Not sure why that puzzled you so much since I specifically said in my post that this was about teaching her about her instincts and to trust them, that no-one deserves her politeness, in preparation for when blokes are demanding her attention in bars etc

But that isn't what you were describing. You were referring to a situation where potential for bad behaviour was obvious.

No I think that is what I said -

And I explicitly tell her to listen to that little voice that says to move or run or shout because that little voice is keeping her safe. And not to worry about being polite when that little voice is talking to her.

...it's really a preamble to listening to her instincts and using them when a pushy guy bothers her in a bar or in the street.

I was thinking about politeness and how we use it towards people - men - who are stepping all over us and how we can move from very obvious 'keeping ourselves safe' messages - like moving ourselves out of harm's way - to ones which are less obvious - not feeling we owe anyone our time or our politeness.

Just wanted to post this...

(TRIGGER WARNING - RAPE)

This is the book, already mentioned.

www.amazon.co.uk/Gift-Fear-Survival-Signals-Violence/dp/0747538352?tag=mumsnetforum-21

Clearly I am not suggesting this for children who are young! My daughter is 13 and i wonder if she is ready to watch this now, I think she is.

It sounds trite and unrelated to “real life” but I can’t speak highly enough of the value of martial arts or combat sports for girls. It teaches you to hold your space and stand with confidence but also often teaches deescalation skills too. All that as well as the self confidence you get from achieving/improving in any sport.