How do you teach your daughters to be nice but not nice?

[Incarnationsofunderstanding]

Boys too I guess to be fair.

Had a terrible experience recently (not detailing, been there deleted that), but as I think and think on it part of the cause is im nice. I'm empathic and tend to put other peoples needs above my own instincts.

Also I tend to the polite and have an inability to set firm boundaries.

I've found myself starting to say to the girls in the past week things like "it's your choice" "you can say no" but I'm handling it all wrong as a reaction.

So wise ladies of MN feminism, how do I ensure my daughters have all the traits of empathy, kindness etc. But be able to prioritise their ability to say no, to set boundaries, to be hard?

Reading material welcome for the future when I am able.

“These are not views I have ever personally held. It is not a mindset the persons who brought me up adopted nor is it how my son was brought up. Equally the persons who brought me up never implanted this "you are a girl- you are doomed to fail" mindset either.”

1. I find it hard to believe that you don’t know that other people hold such views
2. Saying that teaching girls to be assertive and confident is implanting a “you are a girl - you are doomed to fail” mindset is just bollocks.

I was glad when I had 2 boys in the sense that I wondered if I'd even be able to resist treating them differently if one had been a girl. I know I'm not immune to it.

I think that I and others (and little girls now) are disproportionately rewarded for being kind and self-sacrificing in a way that boys are not, even if their parents are raising both sexes to be nice

The problems can arise when children go to school because then they absorb the attitudes of others, not only peers but adults too. I have two daughters and a son. We always discussed school after pick up. All my children are kind and good - I dislike the word 'nice' though we all love the biscuit I and the children found the 'debriefing' after school very helpful.

I think this thread is very positive and respectful.

“I was glad when I had 2 boys in the sense that I wondered if I'd even be able to resist treating them differently if one had been a girl. I know I'm not immune to it.”

But I think you should treat them differently. For a start, the outside societal pressures on girls and boys are very different, and they need different strategies to deal with them.

I don't tend to worry so much about raising my teen girls in the home but I am concerned with keeping them safe in the big wide and quite dangerous world. Like other people on here, I've taught them to do a runner/move away/not to be polite to strangers or in situations they feel uncomfortable as we live in a city and they do come across this type of thing time to time. I've taught them not to stick around trying to work out whether someone is dodgy, but just to get up and move away, and I've done this in real life with them on the tube to avoid an unpleasant encounter. I also tell them not to be nosy about what others are up to, as there is a small amount of drug dealing round our area, and so peering at others or challenging them is a bad idea- again, move off and away and keep yourself safe. They let me know where they are via mobile, which took a bit of training with 'I didn't remember' in the early days. I don't think I've addressed the issue of sex enough yet so that's on the cards (I mean how to be assertive/keep safe/have fun).

Bertrand

Yes, that is true. I suppose what I worried about was having different expectations of them Different perceptions of their behaviour. I didn't realise how many gender stereotypes I held until I saw how different my two were from each other and also how there are different ways of being a boy. And what I might have interpreted as down to their sex was actually just their personality or whether they were the first, second etc.

I am new to thinking about a lot of this. Learning so much from MN

Frankly, and I admit that my personal experience might be coloring my judgement here, I think we spend far too long telling our girls how to keep themselves safe from strangers and in public places, and not enough telling them how to keep themselves safe within relationships. It’s like the focus on stranger danger with little ones- it’s really not strangers they need to worry about.

Identifies Yes, that’s true. I have one of each, and I have to stop myself doing the boy/girl thinking when it could actually be Grace/Patrick thinking........

It isn't just a boy girl thing, some boys need help being assertive, some girls need the opposite. We need to know our kids, as an example one of my sons was always very influenced by what his friends said/did, my other 3, 2 boys 1 girl, were totally different and were more likely to be the influencers (is that a word?) so he needed more help with this than his siblings, it wasn't because he was a boy but because of his personality.

BertrandRussell I agree with this to some extent, my girls are not in relationships yet though, so the main issue they do have is drunk guys or other teens on public transport, we live in a city so this is something they already have to navigate and have had a couple of encounters. I am worried about them in personal relationships as once love/emotions kick in, that rational 'keeping oneself safe' thing can go out the window (or you can't perceive the danger).

I heard a piece on radio 4 yesterday, an Indian man was talking about the problems with rape and sexual abuse in India. He said something like, "We are always careful to ask our girls where they are going, what are they doing, perhaps we need to start asking our sons the same."

Frankly, and I admit that my personal experience might be coloring my judgement here, I think we spend far too long telling our girls how to keep themselves safe from strangers and in public places, and not enough telling them how to keep themselves safe within relationships

I agree. That is why I was puzzled at the poster focusing on telling her daughter why they were moving away from dodgy characters on trains. I would have done the same with my son but the reason for doing so is obvious.

I agree. My parents were benignly sexist, (although the effect of their internalised patriarchy on me hasn't been that benign in terms of cause and effect) but being groped on the bus has caused me less damage than when I met a controlling abuser and that uncomfortable feeling of not being pleasing enough felt familiar.

Saying that teaching girls to be assertive and confident is implanting a “you are a girl - you are doomed to fail” mindset is just bollocks.

That is not what I was saying. Quite the opposite.

Bertrand totally agree, it's easy to teach my children to be safe in public. It's not easy to teach them the insidious nature of the fact being polite and nice and kind with those you know/are getting to know can put you in danger of manipulation and abuse.

Lass I find your views dismissive of the issue and shortsighted. My girls aren't being taught that they are doomed to fail as neither was I. I have a high profile high responsibility job. I left a DH of many years when his behaviour became such it affected the children and I. I am the sole supporter of my little band and not a pushover to get where I am.

And yet...

My female natural or societa taught instinct to put aside my own needs and instincts, and to not offend others still led to be being manipulated very very subtly and raped recently.

This thread uncovers the mindsets that are so ingrained we can't even see them day to day. I WILL remove them from my daughters and still teach them to succeed and be happy.

I have always believed in my own capabilities and that the world is an inherently good place. It's time to raise our heads and say it just simply isn't and we need to raise children to live in the reality.

Bertrand my daughter and her partner moved in together nearly 2 years ago. It is lovely to see their relationship, very caring and very supportive. She said to me once that she knew I 100% had her back and that was what she wanted in a partner and I think she has it and she is as supportive as he is. He has had a big jump in career terms and when I was congratulating him he said he couldn't have done it without her support as she gave him the confidence to go for it.

I think if they are confident girls they should be OK.

The drunks and so on in a city is something else but actually I think other young women can be a danger. I remember DD being really shocked when the police gave a talk at school to 6th formers. They showed pictures of girls who had been scarred by other girls in "glassing" attacks in clubs. Apparently it was quite a common thing, used to be hair pulling and scratches but now getting a glass in the face and the scars to prove it can happen. Statistically young men are more at risk so with all of mine I always encouraged them to stay in groups and to watch out for friends and make sure friends were doing the same. They do need to know it can be a dangerous world out there but they also need to live so it is a balance to make them aware but not scare them.

I think we get so many parenting books on feeding and toilet training and how to "tame" toddlers but the most difficult things in my opinion are when do you let them go to the corner shop alone? How old should they be before they can go to the park with a group of friends? What time should they be in when they are 15, 16 or 17. Should be let them have some alcohol at home or is that encouraging drink problems or is it teaching them to be responsible. It is much more of a minefield but hard to get good advice in my experience.

“I think if they are confident girls they should be OK”

Yeah, that’s what I thought. It’s honestly not true.

Concur. I'm confident, made no difference.

“He has had a big jump in career terms and when I was congratulating him he said he couldn't have done it without her support as she gave him the confidence to go for it.”

And I honestly don’t mean to be picky, and it’s fantastic that he appreciates her so much- but I think it’s interesting that your example is of woman as helpmeet............

Perhaps we are all driven by our own experiences, then, I was continually street harassed as a young woman and in the UK this is a very insidious and self-esteem damaging experience that is just commonplace, I'm surprised to hear people be quite so dismissive. The same skills of knowing when to get away, not to be polite and not hesitating to get out of dodgy situations and not to give second chances/assume they are misunderstandings hold for personal relationships too, and I have used them both on the street and in encounters with people I know (and had them fail occasionally as well). I am not talking about stranger danger in the traditional sense, but keeping safe if you go out wanting to meet other people in bars and clubs, including friends/friends of friends/people who may have seen around, and have fun (including sexual experiences), which I spent much of my twenties doing. This includes being safe from other women as well as men, my girls have walked through gangs including girls who have said stuff, it's quite intimidating.

I will also repeat my mum's message to me: no-one lays a finger on you and if they do, you get out (get physically safe) and never ever go back. Never. No second chances, no excuses. She told me very clearly this numerous times as a child and I have to say it was a bit bewildering at the time as it's hard to imagine these situations when you are young. Of course that doesn't cover coercive control, I'm going to speak directly to my girls about this as well. I can't say whether this very direct message had an impact or not, I guess if I'd found myself in a abusive relationship, it might have been harder to tell her but in general, the zero tolerance approach to abuse/violence was a good message I think and I've put it into practice on a couple of occasions (reporting a date who got physical, leaving a relationship where the person 'accidentally' hit me).

I also think we have to be kind to ourselves, even if you give the 'right' messages, you cannot control your own or your children's experiences and sometimes, even if you do everything 'right', bad things happen and you shouldn't blame yourself for that at all. I have been streetwise but also attacked, I don't blame myself for not having done the right things on that particular occasion.

I’m sorry- I didn’t mean to be dismissive of street harassment and the need to be safe when out amongst strangers. I know they are incredibly important. I suppose what I am saying is that that is something we are all aware of- and a message that girls get from many sources. The dangers within relationships are not really talked about. And forgive me, but the ‘if he lifts a hand to you, just leave” and “a man would only hit me once” tropes are just so unlike what actually happens in real life. And can also be counter productive.

Bertrand I agree- that's what I'm saying, I'm not sure my mum's advice was sound, but on the other hand, the idea of that violence is not being a part of a normal relationship or anything to do with love did stay with me. I didn't grow up thinking that was normal and I don't think that was a bad thing, even if it was a crude way to express it (and I grew up in a rough area where it was pretty commonplace, tbh).

As for the street harassment, I think the point I'm trying to make is there isn't a neat divide between strangers and relationships anyway- at some point, you go somewhere and meet someone who was formerly a stranger, and hook up with them or get chatting, and thereby get into a relationship- hence the danger. Street drunks are not the whole problem, I completely agree, but the aggression and nastiness shown in public to women in the Uk is indicative of ongoing hostility to women that gets displayed everywhere, including in personal relationships, sadly. The same guys that are shouting out of van windows may well be the ones to go home and create hell in their own homes. Our domestic abuse rates are a national disgrace.

That’s what I always think, deep dark- however lucky we have been, somebody is the wife /girlfriend/mother of these awful men shouting out of van windows, uttering vile comments in the street etc etc. Those women I REALLY feel for.

"The same guys that are shouting out of van windows may well be the ones to go home and create hell in their own homes"
I am really sorry if I sound as if I'm picking you up on everything you say( in advance!) but I think this is a dangerous message too. Domestic abusers are just as likely to be QCs as white van men.

It is tricky and DD struggles with it as she is very kind and gets taken advantage of/walked over a fair amount. I teach her about what a real friend is as so many of her 'friends' are pretty shit to her and she is becoming wise to them. I still tell her to be herself and to be kind though as once these shitty teen years are past that is who I would still want her to be. Her school actually invited her to a 6 week self esteem course recently which I'm hoping will help her as she has a tendency to become invisible as louder voices are always shouting over her (in class and in general life). She is very good that she is always true to herself and doesn't follow the crowd or try to fit in if she doesn't want to. I was a real sheep at her age whereas her Dad has never given a shit what people think and part of his attitude has rubbed off on me and our kids which is good!